What is reality for a human anyway, would be the first question.

Aren't the societies we are allways in the business of creating reliant on fictions and ideals we collectively believe in... and so dream-like in nature.

And are the roles we play in those societies not more akin to that of actors on one big stage? I mean, if people would say to the slacker 'get real' or something along those lines, doesn't this mean that he needs to start working the social hierarchy, building a reputation and things like that. What is important is how people come to view us, that is the thing that has (monetary) value in the end, not the way we 'really' are.

'De-realisation', I would content, is actually the opposite of turning away from reality... it's the unravelling of this dream-like apollonian structure in ones mind. If you want to experience that, I'd recomment getting drunk for a couple of days straight, and just walk arround a city observing people and things.

So translated to millennials, the critique then maybe is not that they are escaping reality, but more that they don't buy into the collective dream of previous generations, and are creating dreams of their own. And doing so, they actually are also 'real-ising' their own dreams. Just look at how big the gaming industry, E-sports etc have become... and how much money can be earned there. And what other then money would be the ultimate fiction as a measure of realness ;-)?

listen to this song BTW.
Lord Huron - Meet Me In The Woods
I bet you will like it !

"Dumbledore! Is this... Real??"

"Just because it happens in your mind, Harry... Why should that not make it real?"

(Probably not the exact words but yes. I love Harry Potter)

Variety is the spice of life. I think every circumstance has a limit to how much focus our minds can give to it. Past that limit, it becomes stale and our minds begin to incorporate new ideas through our creative/imaginative faculties. Sometimes, the circumstance encompasses our lives and we end up seeking an ultimate escape, a parallel world, not necessarily of illusion but of a different mode of experience.

Life is a creative act, for a human. Is that dreaming? We live our lives immersed in Kanye and Rihanna, Trump and Putin, Big Brother and America's Next Top Model. Are these not fantasy worlds?

Why are we all trying to escape from reality, responsibility, and other realistic goals? Is this some form of coping or what? — Posty McPostface

Because it's what we humans do? Yes, it's what, I think. :up:

We live our lives immersed in Kanye and Rihanna, Trump and Putin, Big Brother and America's Next Top Model. Are these not fantasy worlds? — Pattern-chaser

It sure is a form of fantasy world. Isn't that what entertainment is all about?

But, the issue is that isn't this all so childish and mundane an activity that anyone with a competent mind can see through this whole charade? What then?

And are the roles we play in those societies not more akin to that of actors on one big stage? I mean, if people would say to the slacker 'get real' or something along those lines, doesn't this mean that he needs to start working the social hierarchy, building a reputation and things like that. What is important is how people come to view us, that is the thing that has (monetary) value in the end, not the way we 'really' are. — ChatteringMonkey

Sorry, been meaning to get back to this post. I think you nailed it, with describing this in terms of the roles we play. It also consists of games we play also.

'De-realisation', I would content, is actually the opposite of turning away from reality... it's the unravelling of this dream-like apollonian structure in ones mind. If you want to experience that, I'd recomment getting drunk for a couple of days straight, and just walk arround a city observing people and things. — ChatteringMonkey

What do you mean by that? I'm not understanding your stipulative definition of 'de-realization'.

So translated to millennials, the critique then maybe is not that they are escaping reality, but more that they don't buy into the collective dream of previous generations, and are creating dreams of their own. And doing so, they actually are also 'real-ising' their own dreams. Just look at how big the gaming industry, E-sports etc have become... and how much money can be earned there. And what other then money would be the ultimate fiction as a measure of realness ;-)? — ChatteringMonkey

Yes, even money is a fictitious concept based on trust. Time to buy some gold! :smile:

What do you mean by that? I'm not understanding your stipulative definition of 'de-realization'. — Posty McPostface

Yeah, I can see how that can be confusing, I was using different definitions of reality along side eachother.

If the 'normal everyday reality' of human experience is living in this symobolic order (the fictions we create as a society) and the particular roles we play in in relation to that order, then this 'normal everyday reality' is more akin to a dream.

De-realisation then would be falling out of that dream, or the unravelling of that 'fictitious' symbolic order... as opposed to how you used it in your post, as a turning away from reality towards a dream (where dream and reality are opposed).

I'm basicly using Nietzsches Apollonian-Dionysian distinction here, where Apollo stands for order, individuation and the dream, and Dionysus for ecstacy, madness and a more primordial oneness.

To make this somewhat more concrete, you could maybe think of the appolonian as people going through a fixed routine everyday, to their jobs and back to home, where everybody has a particular fixed role in hierarchies. And the dionysian as people going to a summer festival, where they get drunk, listen to music and go up in the crowd... and let go of the usual societal bounderies.

De-realisation then would be falling out of that dream, or the unravelling of that 'fictitious' symbolic order... as opposed to how you used it in your post, as a turning away from reality towards a dream (where dream and reality are opposed). — ChatteringMonkey

Ah, I think I understand. So, derealization is just a shifting of one's dream to a more inwardly desire or dream from that of society or socio-cultural instilled or indoctrinated ones. Is that correct?

Well I would say that the shifting towards another dream is maybe the result of derealisation, but not the derealisation itself. Derealisation is more the temporary absence of the dream, a kind of madness or drunkeness where one doesn't stay very long usually... but it can maybe give some insights so that the following dream has shifted yes.

Well I would say that the shifting towards another dream is maybe the result of derealisation, but not the derealisation itself. Derealisation is more the temporary absence of the dream, a kind of madness or drunkeness where one doesn't stay very long usually... but it can maybe give some insights so that the following dream has shifted yes. — ChatteringMonkey

Yeah, by my previous post you'd think that's what someone on LSD or mushrooms would experience. Some form of controlled or uncontrolled psychosis.

Yes LCD, mushrooms or even alcohol could probably induce such states.

Life is a creative act, for a human. Is that dreaming? We live our lives immersed in Kanye and Rihanna, Trump and Putin, Big Brother and America's Next Top Model. Are these not fantasy worlds? — Pattern-chaser

isn't this all so childish and mundane an activity that anyone with a competent mind can see through this whole charade? — Posty McPostface

Hey, slow down! :wink: You seem to have jumped straight from my claim, based on empirical observation (but still possibly wrong; it's too easy to think that what people like me do is what everyone does), to your own conclusion, which is a subjective human value judgement, unaccompanied by any form of justification. :chin:

"Charade"? I noted what people seem to do (how they actually live their lives), and (if my observation is accurate) this is what is. Your mention of "competent minds" and "charades" looks a lot like what you think ought to be. OK, drop the insulting vocabulary and tell us why you think this is wrong. Better still, tell us why you disagree with (what looks like, to me) the vast majority of humans, and how they choose to live their lives?

All work and no play make person dull.
As to night dreams, they are not always uplifting, they are accidental and useless.

When you're stuck in a zoo enclosure the best thing you can do is imagine yourself elsewhere.

Even if you want to escape the best you can do is to try to get a spot in the San Diego zoo.

But this thought isn't but fantasy. We don't live in a zoo. We live in a .... pineapple under the sea?

"Charade"? I noted what people seem to do (how they actually live their lives), and (if my observation is accurate) this is what is. Your mention of "competent minds" and "charades" looks a lot like what you think ought to be. OK, drop the insulting vocabulary and tell us why you think this is wrong. Better still, tell us why you disagree with (what looks like, to me) the vast majority of humans, and how they choose to live their lives? — Pattern-chaser

So, your asking me for my own conception of human nature. I'm afraid I don't have one. But, I'll get back to you when I do. :smile:

Or a yellow submarine. Who knows such things?

You guys do what you want with this thread. It lacks direction and I'm not sure where it's headed.

Since the OP's theme is related to escaping suffering a Buddhist view on fantasy might be appropriate here.

The three poisons of maya (ie. the phenomenal dreamlike realm of experience) are attachment, aversion and ignorance. Most of our perceptions and resulting actions are conditioned by these three things. We can supposedly work on ourselves to habituate a non-reactive and dispassionate attitude toward these sources responsible for our faulty, fantastic and unnecessary perceptions. This somehow frees us up a bit in the causal playground of life and alleviates our suffering.

You guys do what you want with this thread. It lacks direction and I'm not sure where it's headed. — Posty McPostface

I suggest we turn to the ever titillating topic of Eliminative Ontic Structural Subjective Idealism metaphysics.

Who wants to go first?

This. Go ahead first.