• flight747
    15
    Some counterarguments against pessimism’s view on moral testimony
    On page seven of What is Wrong With Moral Testimony? Robert Hopkins presents the following argument, that one cannot adopt moral worldviews simply on the testimony of another. He claims that “The pessimist’s starting point is the intuition that we cannot legitimately adopt our moral views on the word of another… When others offer one their moral views, one should not allow oneself to be influenced by the mere fact that they make certain claims. Listen to their arguments, think the matter through for oneself, but do not be swayed by authority. The intuition is not that we should eschew (avoid) taking another’s word on moral matters because the discourse is not genuinely epistemic (how we acquire knowledge); it is that we should eschew (avoid) it, whatever the nature of that discourse—epistemic (knowledge) or ersatz (not knowledge/inferior knowledge)—turns out to be. (Hopkins page 7)”
    I think Robert Hopkins has this argument form:
    Premise 1: If someone with authority asks you to believe in a moral view, then you should either adopt or reject their moral view.
    Premise 2: One cannot adopt a moral view on the account of someone being able to make certain claims, regardless of the nature of the discourse.
    Conclusion: So, one should reject any moral views said by someone with authority, regardless of the nature of that discourse. (1,2 HS)
    Although Hopkins’ argument of not accepting moral views based on the testimony of another seems to be logical and reasonable, Hopkin’s argument fails to account for certain scenarios in which taking the moral view of another is considered acceptable and correct in society. With this in mind, I challenge premise two, which reads that, “One cannot adopt a moral view on the account of someone being able to make certain claims, regardless of the nature of the discourse,” in view that around the world it is generally agreed upon that children should listen to their parent’s advice on life. This example directly interferes with Hopkins’ argument, since a person of authority is asking a child, teenage, or young adult to adopt a moral view of some kind. Despite seeking wisdom from authoritative sources, such as older generations, being wrong for Hopkins, society would disagree with Hopkins and agree that younger generations should at least consider the older generations’ moral views, on the basis that they have lived longer and can provide one with sound advice.
    Additionally, society relies on moral testimony because it prompts both parties to consider each other’s point of views and reach a conclusion for themselves. In view of the need for all humans to at least consider each other’s points of view, I disagree with premise one, on the basis that adopting or rejecting a moral view are not the only two options for responding to someone else’s moral testimony. In my opinion, one can still consider yet not adopt another person’s argument. However, according to Hopkins, one should not even consider, but rather avoid another person’s arguments. In view of Hopkins’ view and applying it to real life, if one were to consider applying this idea of premise one, which carries over to premise two and asks the reader to not even consider but rather avoid and reject another person’s moral view, one of the first things one would have to give up would be civic discourse. In civic discourse there are two parties present, engaging, challenging, and attempting to persuade each other to adopt the other’s moral view on a topic. Thus, if Hopkins’ views were incorporated, one would see no use in civic discourse because one’s mind would be presupposed to disregard and avoid the other person’s viewpoint, on the basis that moral testimony is not knowledge. In view of the narrowmindedness a pessimistic view would entail on all communication in general, I find the author’s argument against moral testimony to be faulty and requiring more refinement.
    In view of Hopkin’s views on moral testimony and my counterarguments for his article, I hope that the points I have presented illustrate the fault that arises from completely adopting Hopkin’s pessimistic view on moral testimony. Even though I do agree with him that in not all cases one should automatically adopt another person’s moral view, such as when a Neo-Nazis asks you to adopt a commonly held morally wrong point of view, I think that in other cases, such as with children, teenagers, or young adults, they should adopt their parental authority’s moral point of view.

    What are your thoughts on morality?
  • BlueBanana
    873
    I don't think your rejection of premise two is valid. You're relying on your intuition, showing examples where "clearly" your principles are superior. This is rather dangerous, as you'll always find philosophers that disagree. It seems Hopkins is arguing that no moral system can be chosen by any individual, at least through discourse, so he'd just disagree with you on that children should listen to their parents.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    In my view, it's not possible to adopt someone else's moral view, willy-nilly, on authority, where it counts as a moral view that you're espousing.

    To explain that with an example, let's say that you have no view on whether we should allow assisted suicide. You take Joe to be a moral authority (maybe Joe is a physician who now concentrates on bio-ethics, you think that Joe has consistently swell arguments, etc). Joe says that it's morally permissible to allow assisted suicide (and if asked to explain or justify it, he has a host of arguments for it). Since you think of Joe as a moral authority, you decide to parrot Joe's view, and the next time the topic comes up, you say that it's morally permissible to allow assisted suicide, where you're saying that because it's what Joe said, and you consider Joe to be an authority.

    Well, I wouldn't say that your utterance of "It is morally permissible to allow assisted suicide" is a moral view. Which isn't to suggest that it's immoral, but rather amoral. When you say "It is morally permissible to allow assisted suicide," it has nothing to do with morality, because it's not actually a way that you feel about interpersonal behavior--and that's what morality is. It's just you parroting what someone else said. In order for you to be uttering a moral view about whether assisted suicide is kosher, you need to have probed how you feel about it, and you need to be reporting how you feel.
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    When others offer one their moral views, one should not allow oneself to be influenced by the mere fact that they make certain claims. Listen to their arguments, think the matter through for oneself, but do not be swayed by authority.flight747

    I am unpersuaded by this moral testimony.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    I am unpersuaded by this moral testimony.unenlightened

    Is he offering moral advice there?
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    Is he offering moral advice there?Terrapin Station

    His "should not" is unconditional and followed by unconditional commandments. So yes, as moral as the ten commandments. And on the basis of nothing more than authority, it seems.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    His "should not" is unconditionalunenlightened

    Not all normatives are moral normatives.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Exampleunenlightened

    "You shouldn't stick a fork in an electrical socket."
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    "You shouldn't stick a fork in an electrical socket."Terrapin Station

    Yup, that's not normative because it's conditional on not wanting to electrocute oneself, which is assumed. If one does want to electrocute oneself, then it is to be recommended.

    If it was phrased as in the op, ' one should not allow oneself to stick a fork in an electrical socket' then it implies that even if one has some reason to want to, perhaps suicide, perhaps to make a Jackass U-tube video, still one should not, and it becomes unconditional and moral.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    No, that has nothing to do with whether we're talking about morality or not, and you could parse anything as conditional or unconditional in that way. Thinking that the phrase "not allow onseself" somehow makes it unconditional just seems completely arbitrary.

    What's wrong with "One should not allow oneself to stick a fork in a socket if one wishes to not be electrocuted"? That's conditional on your interpretation, no? But it contains the phrase "not allow oneself." That phrase doesn't make it unconditional , and it doesn't make it a moral matter.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Normatives are "shoulds" in general. They're not defined by whether they're conditional or not. I don't know where you're getting that idea from.
  • unenlightened
    9.2k
    To get a better idea of morality we should distinguish between conditional and unconditional “oughts.” A conditional ought takes the form of something sufficiently like “If you want to do X, you ought to do Y” and says what conditions help accomplish a particular goal without saying whether one should aim for the goal in the first place, e.g. “If you want to poison your teacher to death, you should use a sufficiently strong toxin.” An unconditional ought says what ought to be period and is the sort of ought found in “You should not poison teachers to death” and “the worst possible misery and suffering for everyone for all eternity is a state of affairs that ought not to be,” and is thus goal-independent in a way that a conditional ought is not. Moral obligations are a type of unconditional “oughtness.” An unconditional ought is not to be confused with an “ought” that doesn’t rely on any circumstances whatsoever; e.g. one could believe the unconditional ought with respect to not killing applies in some circumstances but that this obligation does not exist in certain other situations (some self-defense cases perhaps).

    http://www.angelfire.com/mn2/tisthammerw/rlgnphil/morality.html
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