Summary of the OP, in the form of a meme I made:



Please share your thoughts.

Who is actually saying that this universe is special?

Because this has nothing to do with tastes and appetites. Whether something is palatable or not... that has nothing at all to do with whether something is the case. All of your objections are of this "boo" nature, rather than anything substantive.

Who is actually saying that this universe is special? — lupac

As an example:

Luke 12:7 ESV
"Why, even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not; you are of more value than many sparrows"

...and thousands of other bible verses about great specialness. Of course, this is not limited to Christianity.

That verse seems to be about humanity, not about the universe we're in. Is anyone saying that this specific universe is special?

How do you know that this isnt the best god could do? If god wants a universe with free will, or any other preferential parameters, why cant this be the best result based in those parameters?

How do you know that this isnt the best god could do? If god wants a universe with free will, or any other preferential parameters, why cant this be the best result based in those parameters? — DingoJones

Are you saying this universe represents the end of God's supposedly unending range of preferences?

Let me try to warn you from now, any noun you aim to supply, be it love, preference etc, can probably receive the same treatment. Good luck.

Fear not; you are of more value than many sparrows

Personally, I think I'm worth about 15 sparrows. No more. No less.

Omnipotence is a rather strange and paradoxical term, but it's also not the staple atheists pretend it to be. After all, if God was not omnipotent, but still capable of all things that Christians attribute to God, such an entity would still be powerful beyond comprehension, omnipotent or not. Pointing out the paradoxical nature of omnipotence at most implies the use of a different term would be more accurate.

Secondly:

Note: This universe is by far, theistically describable as not the best God could create, and in theistic theory, God would have in his supposed omnipotency, created far better, far more valuable things. — VoidDetector

Existence and the universe are perfect, but it is man's interpretation of his circumstance that is imperfect.

A wise man once said:

"A problem cannot cause suffering, it is our thinking and attachment to it that causes suffering."

In other words, any imperfection you may observe is an illusion.

Doesn't this tie into the story of Adam and Eve and how they ate of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil? After all, without labeling things as "good" or "bad", there is just 'being'. So by eating from the Tree, Adam and Eve created their own suffering. Labeling things as good or bad, and thereby refusing to accept the reality of being (as good and bad necessarily imply 'becoming').

Personally, I think I'm worth about 15 sparrows. No more. No less. — vulcanlogician

As sparrows become rarer and humans more common, the exchange rate of humans to sparrows must inevitably decline. In Jesus's day, the average human was probably worth at least 1000 sparrows, but alas, no longer. And of course, some humans are worth less sparrows than others: Stephen Hawking was worth a good 50 or 60 sparrows, while the value of the entire current British government is about 2 and a half sparrows today, and getting less with each day that passes.

Existence and the universe are perfect, but it is man's interpretation of his circumstance that is imperfect.

A wise man once said:

"A problem cannot cause suffering, it is our thinking and attachment to it that causes suffering."

In other words, any imperfection you may observe is an illusion. — Tzeentch

My wife has just been diagnosed with cancer. You will forgive me if I say that you are talking through your rear end.

Are you saying this universe represents the end of God's supposedly unending range of preferences? — VoidDetector

Not at all. Do you not undestand what parameters are? I admit that “preferential parameters” is a bit clumsy but im always happy to clarify if you ask. I do find it hard to imagine you actually tried here though, unless I missed my mark you seem to have me confused with some sort of theist, apologist or some kind of wishy washy, spiritually open soft atheist?

"best"/"better" are subjective.

My wife has just been diagnosed with cancer. You will forgive me if I say that you are talking through your rear end. — Herg

My likely atheistic friend, that's the typical religious selfishness.

399 of 400 people die in a plane crash.

..but Lisa the Christian, is glad that God saved her husband, while killing the others. [Bible says God creates all good and all evil, Isaiah 45:7]

I seriously doubt Herg is religious given what I’ve read from him.

As sparrows become rarer and humans more common, the exchange rate of humans to sparrows must inevitably decline. In Jesus's day, the average human was probably worth at least 1000 sparrows, but alas, no longer. — Herg

LOL!

Sad thing is, if there is surviving documentation from the period concerning the going rate for domesticated/captured sparrows, an exchange rate for a human life could be worked out... because, y'know... slavery was a thing.

Or, there is no Universe, it doesn't exist, it's an illusion. Videos shot in Earth orbit and on the Moon show no stars, just darkness.

↪VoidDetector I seriously doubt Herg is religious given what I’ve read from him. — Noah Te Stroete

I'm agnostic, on the grounds that (a) the claims made by religion are unconvincing, but (b) we cannot possibly know what may or may not exist beyond the world revealed to us by our senses and our instruments, so for all we know there could be something we can't detect that deserves to be called 'God'.

I sometimes pray to the God I am agnostic about. The most recent occasions were yesterday, when I asked the God I am agnostic about to fix it so that my wife's primary cancer had not metastasised to produce secondary cancers, and today after we had been told the results of her scans, when I thanked the God I am agnostic about that, as far as the medics can tell, they haven't. I do this sort of thing (my wife has had four cancers, and I've done it every time) on the same principle that a man stuck down a crevasse in a deserted area might call for help; he doesn't believe there is anyone to hear him, but he calls out just in case there is.

When I mentioned to people in another philosophy forum that I do this kind of thing, I was accused of being intellectually inconsistent. To which my reply is: bugger intellectual consistency, it doesn't matter to me a millionth as much as my wife does.

I expound the miracles of the heart to people with heart disease. It's more than awkward the whole time, and I just want to curl up and disappear. The truth is really really terrible... but perdition, lose of soul, hell, it originally just meant irreparably damaged, due to the ways one lives, breaths, and feels. When one asks god for help, you get help changing, and reorienting. People need to stop their road to self-destruction and turn it around, and start taking care of themselves as if they're actually worth something to someone. That's the only thing that can fix you, or anyone, as far as I know. I know personally people that would say I lack faith saying that, but I know that I'm going to get to watch them kill themselves while they have more faith.

This universe is special because you are in it, lupac

intellectual consistency is something I had to un-learnt in the first year of my teaching career; from then on it was "whatever works". All state-run schools should have that motto in big golden letters at the hall. On the other hand, you are not inconsistent, because an agnostic does not reject the existence of God, agnosticism is really skepticism.

zomg philoso-memes, the new medium of critical thought

I have been where you are. If praying helps, then pray. Fuck the philosophers who think it is inconsistent.

Not that this is all that useful, but your posts reminded me of a prayer experience I once had.

I was about 16, surfing by myself. A storm came up so I got out of the water and sat under an overhang at a beach house, waiting for the storm to pass. I was bored, so I played a game and asked God to give me a sign if he existed. Nothing. No sign. More nothing. Nothing all day long. So I finally gave up waiting and returned to surfing.

That was 50 years ago. And I can't remember anything else about that day, that week, that month. I can't even remember if the surf was any good. But I remember asking that question, even though I really didn't care about it much at the time.

What does this mean? Anything we want it too. I make no claims. Just saying, it happened.

This universe is by far, theistically describable as not the best God could create, and in theistic theory, God would have in his supposed omnipotency, created far better, far more valuable things. — VoidDetector

I wondered if the OP is still around, could he describe his perfect universe?

If praying helps, then pray. Fuck the philosophers who think it is inconsistent. — Bitter Crank

I guess its inline with Pascal's Wager. God may exist so prayer is a worthwhile activity from the standpoint of a non-zero probability someone is listening. I sometimes pray on this basis.

Someone mentioned our God is probably like Crom from Conan the Barbarian! Not too sure about this; I imagine our God as benevolent but impotent, whereas I thought Crom came over as more neutral and potent.

↪Herg I have been where you are. If praying helps, then pray. Fuck the philosophers who think it is inconsistent. — Bitter Crank

It was the anti-theists who said I was inconsistent. I had far more trouble with the anti-theists than with the theists. The theists seemed happy to let me go my own sweet way, but the anti-theists called themselves 'atheists' and kept trying to persuade me that I was an atheist like them, because I didn't believe in God, and that as an atheist, I was being inconsistent in praying.

I'm not sure I would call the anti-theists in that forum 'philosophers'. I think the word I would use is 'bigots'.

Omnipotent is to behold an absolute power towards all things known and unknown. To the extent that Chistians believe that everything bestowed to them as "known" to be absolutely beautiful.

Everything that God creates is the best and of finest quality. His omnipotence in intellect and preference are invariably undeniable. No such thing as something imperfect from him or his dues.

What I assume makes human the exception to anything else is the fact that they can be aware of God's presence. By his will has been your will and thus your imperfection in thought.

An infinitely worse heaven is impossible because from him everything is of absoluteness.

I'm a deist by the way. I don't necessarily believe in God but in the damn Boolean variables that project our reality and physicality.

Everything that God creates is the best and of finest quality. His omnipotence in intellect and preference are invariably undeniable. No such thing as something imperfect from him or his dues. — Emmanuele

Are you saying an infinite being has some "best" measure of performance?

Is this universe's creation the end of God's supposedly unending power?

Are you saying an infinite being has some "best" measure of performance?

Is this universe's creation the end of God's supposedly unending power? — VoidDetector

No, I'm saying that by our way of measuring, what he does is of the best performance. We are the ones who evaluate from best to worst, both being relative.