It seems to me to be a matter of "hope to get better". This can be provided by the active and imaginative part of the childlike psyche. Trauma often retards psychological development.

It's interesting to note that the author describes this as a "schizoid" personality. One of which I nourish one these very forums.

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/233444

"I don't build up illusions till I make myself sick" -- Bob Dylan

Get out of yer head. The secret, and truth is of course, is that due to all of the day dreaming, body is all bound together and twisted, and if only you could stay present long enough, you might start to notice all of the arches and pains you ignore and shut out, like you do with all pain.

You strike me as being capable of a lot, I hope that you don't ruin it with drugs. The best stuff is subtle, and difficult to perceive, but there for everyone. It isn't grand extremely stimulating experiences.

6.1k
It seems to me to be a matter of "hope to get better". This can be provided by the active and imaginative part of the childlike psyche. Trauma often retards psychological development. — Wallows

I think I'm about to devour his books. From what I understand, the one this is taken from, The Inner World of Trauma, is essentially an attempt to create a portrait of these types of defense systems, as well as to sketch how they are born and develop. He has a later book, Trauma & the Soul which I believe deals much more with growing out of them. Though part of me is also reluctant to read too much - because this is so spot on , and part of my 'daimon' is intellectualizing - and so rendering neutral - things that could help me.

I think I'm about to devour his books. From what I understand the one this is taken from, The Inner World of Trauma, is essentially an attempt to create a portrait these types of defense systems, as well as to sketch how they are born and develop. He has a later book, Trauma & the Soul which I believe deals much more with growing out of them. — csalisbury

That's interesting. I take an approach towards treating trauma tantamount to the appearance of psychosis, though from an external and not internal event. Psychosis is, in essence, a trauma of the mind. But, to return to the topic... I think that trauma is a severe event in one's life that leads to the retardation of the development of one's psyche. The mind cannot cope with trauma and is, so to speak, stuck in the event. Defence mechanisms then manifest and are treated with significance wrt. to that very trauma.

'get out of yer head' ,yes, but in some ways that's like telling someone with anorexia to 'stop distorting your body perception.' Again, yes, but that's the end-goal, not the cure.

When you say:

'The secret, and truth is of course, is that due to all of the day dreaming, body is all bound together and twisted, and if only you could stay present long enough, you might start to notice all of the arches and pains you ignore and shut out, like you do with all pain.'

I agree, wholeheartedly. But there's a middle step missing - how to stay present.

You strike me as being capable of a lot, I hope that you don't ruin it with drugs.

Thank you, I appreciate that. I also think, though, that psychedelics are useful in reasonable doses, in safe environments. Opening the valves a bit, if they've been closed up too tight - but not too much, which could overwhelm.

That's interesting. I take an approach towards treating trauma tantamount to the appearance of psychosis, though from an external and not internal event. Psychosis is, in essence, a trauma of the mind. But, to return to the topic... I think that trauma is a severe event in one's life that leads to the retardation of the development of one's psyche. The mind cannot cope with trauma and is, so to speak, stuck in the event. Defence mechanisms then manifest and are treated with significance wrt. to that very trauma.

I think that's spot on. Kalsched's take is that the type of defence he's talking about is a double-trauma. First there is the external event. The creation of the archetypes happens as a defence against external trauma, and does so by creating a kind of internal trauma, a secondary trauma so to speak.

Kalsched's take is that the type of defence he's talking about is a double-trauma. First there is the external event. The creation of the archetypes happens as a defence against external trauma, and does so by creating a kind of internal trauma, a secondary trauma so to speak. — csalisbury

I wonder though, to entertain a more positivistic aspect of the issue. What is required to "emerge" from this "stuck in reverse or neutral" aspect of trauma? As you've tried, LSD can bring about change in terms of addressing the issue through circumventing the hardwired defence mechanism that is stuck in neutral or reverse. I can't take LSD, and as a person suffering from psychosis in terms of schizophrenia or psychotic disorder, and contradicted too...

I've tried many therapies; but, am unsure what could possibly work for the issue. It's a difficult issue.

Kudos for the breakthrough experience though.

To post more philosophically. I think rationality is a useful tool here. One can "listen" to what reason has to say and grow out of it, so to speak. The mind obviously always doesn't listen to rationality though.

I haven't read too far, but one thing Kalsched talks about is a safe therapeutic environment, where there is a mutual relationship of trust, a relationship that develops according to its own pace. Ideally, a good therapist will be able to meet you where you are, and help grow from there. Obviously there's no such thing in reality as an ideal, but its still a good guiding light. I think its often less about any particular therapeutic modality and more about the relationship itself. Which can take time, and sometimes a long time depending on what one's suffering from.

I sometimes think that a big part of recovery is just becoming comfortable with the reality of one's experience and situation, and the limits and possibilities that situation entails. That takes a lot of courage, I think. Sometimes the need for an 'escape' is part of the problem itself.

I agree about rationality. It's a useful grounding tool.

I haven't read too far, but one thing Kalsched talks about is a safe therapeutic environment, where there is a mutual relationship of trust, a relationship that develops according to its own pace. — csalisbury

I think, that trust is an issue for any person who has experienced trauma. Even (or especially) a schizophrenic experiences trust issues. Trust is such an important feature of humanity.

Obviously there's no such thing in reality as an ideal, but its still a good guiding light. I think its often less about any particular therapeutic modality and more about the relationship itself. Which can take time, and sometimes a long time depending on what one's suffering from. — csalisbury

Yeah, my previous therapist put the onus on me to get better. He basically told me that I have to want to get better to get better. Difficult shit.

I sometimes think that a big part of recovery is just becoming comfortable with the reality of one's experience and situation, and the limits and possibilities that situation entails. That takes a lot of courage, I think. Sometimes the need for an 'escape' is part of the problem itself. — csalisbury

Certainly. I think, the problem with recovery is developing the idea, that there's something fundamentally wrong with you that needs changing. It ain't easy admitting to yourself that something is wrong. We all wish we were infallible and competent beings.

I agree about rationality. It's a useful grounding tool. — csalisbury

What else do you think about that? I think rationality is severely underappreciated.

I dunno, you're right, may not be helpful, and I don't have like ideas to offer, more than allusions, and practices. See, we understand others by mirroring them with the motor cortex, and that doesn't work so well when you aren't open and flexible (and the darkness is frightening). The ideas, or characteristic narrative that you inherit will just play in the mind in the back ground as a consequence of attaining the human form.

When people hurt you, you of course close off to people... I dunno man, I just got saved... by the most ridiculously convenient coincidence ever. To somehow distrust and hate everyone enough to be within a millimeter away from absolute certainty of their nonsense wrongness, and then I submitted to the essence of what all of the representations point to, without realizing that for the majority of the time that I was doing it.

I think, that trust is an issue for any person who has experienced trauma. Even (or especially) a schizophrenic experiences trust issues. Trust is such an important feature of humanity. — Wallows

Agreed. My biggest obstacle in life has been my inability to trust, as well as to feel myself trustworthy. Trust is the bedrock of community, and I think community is the bedrock of human wellbeing. It makes sense, having been traumatized, not to give out trust to whomever comes along. But eventually that also becomes isolating. Whenever I see someone new to the boards posting, despondently, about solipsism my gut-reaction is that this is someone who has been deprived of someone to trust and is looking less for philosophical engagement, than reassurance that there is no outside world (as well, probably, for some savior figure to help them reestablish that outside world.)

Yeah, my previous therapist put the onus on me to get better. He basically told me that I have to want to get better to get better. Difficult shit. — Wallows

That's a tough one. For a long time I've been preoccupied by the paradox of grace. The idea is that grace is always there if you can open yourself up to it. But if the state of being devoid of grace is the inability to open oneself to grace - then how can grace get in?

In less theological terms : if you need help, but what you need help for is not being able to receive help, how do you get help?

That's the sticky part when the mind starts whirring about this stuff - but in practical terms:

It sounds like your therapist was getting frustrated not with you but with your defense mechanisms. That's a human reaction, and understandable, but a therapist, in his professional capacity, should never place the blame on the person coming for help. If there's a roadblock, its not because the person doesn't want to get better, but because their defenses are keeping them safe. That's why I find Kalsched's approach so refreshing. He identifies this problem, and sees the complexity behind it - rather than reducing it simply to some form of obstinance.

Imagine a child therapist, trying to help a child who has been abused, a child who keeps growing shy and silent, or playing games to keep the therapist at bay. And imagine that therapist accusing that child of not wanting to get better. In these terms, there's obviously something amiss. But when a traumatized adult goes to therapy, the part looking for help is quite childlike. And its just as confused to accuse that person of denying help.

What else do you think about that? I think rationality is severely underappreciated. — Wallows

I think rationality is underappreciated in certain quarters, overappreciated in some. I like the image in the Inferno where Virgil (the embodiment of rationality) is necessary for getting Dante through hell, yet can't cross the boundary into purgatory. I think there's a moment in spiritual and mental growth where rationality has to take a background role. But I think, before that, its an incredibly powerful tool for remaining grounded in the midst of personal suffering.

In less theological terms : if you need help, but what you need help for is not being able to receive help, how do you get help? — csalisbury

Yes, it does sound very religious. To want to get help entails that one admits that one needs help. That seems like the biggest obstacle to overcome in terms of therapy.

It sounds like your therapist was getting frustrated not with you but with your defense mechanisms. — csalisbury

Perhaps, rationalizations and intellectualization is the biggest obstacle here. One can fantasize away about what kind of help one needs or doesn't need away.

but a therapist should never place the blame on the person coming for help. — csalisbury

My therapist did that. He placed the onus on me to get better, which is understandable; but, leads to nothing but despair and hopelessness.

If there's a roadblock, its not because the person doesn't want to get better, but because their defenses are keeping them safe — csalisbury

Said like a prophet.

That's why I find Kalsched's approach so refreshing. He identifies this problem, and sees the complexity behind it - rather than reducing it to some form of obstinance. — csalisbury

Two-edged sword here. Who knows what is the issue? The patient only in some regards. There's only so much a therapist can do.

I think there's a moment in spiritual and mental growth where rationality has to take a background role. — csalisbury

But I think, before that, its an incredibly powerful tool for remaining grounded in the midst of personal suffering. — csalisbury

Please expand!

Whenever I see someone new to the boards posting, despondently, about solipsism my gut-reaction is that this is someone who has been deprived of someone to trust and is looking less for philosophical engagement, than reassurance that there is no outside world (as well, probably, for some savior figure to help them reestablish that outside world.) — csalisbury

I see this was added. What's your take on solipsism. Surely, one cannot become a solipsist with regards to their own mother. Maybe had you been adopted, that might have been a comforting belief to profess.

Two-edged sword here. Who knows what is the issue? The patient only in some regards. There's only so much a therapist can do. — Wallows

That's true. I take some comfort in the fact that Kalsched's book is based only partially on his studies, but equally (if not more so) on his own therapeutic experiences, listening to his patients. He's trying to describe a similar feature he's seen in many of his patients. If you like, he's working inductively, rather than deductively. But i agree that, in the end, it always boils down to the particular therapeutic relationship. But in Kalsched's defense, the only way of imparting knowledge gained from the world is to generalize. And he himself is very cognizant of how one has to move from generalities to the particular case.

Please expand!

I'm not sure if I can here. I think there is an extent to which rationality - in terms of spiritual and mental growth - is a sort of mediating container. And I think that's a fine thing! But i think that ultimately it's a ladder that ---shouldn't be kicked away, exactly, but should be seen as a ladder.

I see this was added. What's your take on solipsism. Surely, one cannot become a solipsist with regards to their own mother. Maybe had you been adopted, that might have been a comforting belief to profess — Wallows

My take on solipsism is that its less a philosophical issue than an emotional one (there are no canonical philosophers who were solipsists, as far as I know.) But an emotional one susceptible to philosophical rationalization. I think you're on to something with adoption. My sense is that its something someone with any sort of attachment issue is susceptible to, and those who were adopted are particuarly vulnerable. But I think it can develop for anyone with any sort of attachment difficulty, including people who were raised by their biological parents.

I dunno, you're right, may not be helpful, and I don't have like ideas to offer, more than allusions, and practices. See, we understand others by mirroring them with the motor cortex, and that doesn't work so well when you aren't open and flexible (and the darkness is frightening). The ideas, or characteristic narrative that you inherit will just play in the mind in the back ground as a consequence of attaining the human form.

When people hurt you, you of course close off to people... I dunno man, I just got saved... by the most ridiculously convenient coincidence ever. To somehow distrust and hate everyone enough to be within a millimeter away from absolute certainty of their nonsense wrongness, and then I submitted to the essence of what all of the representations point to, without realizing that for the majority of the time that I was doing it. — All sight

That's awesome - I'm very much a believer in the reality of grace, and that it can visit itself upon people in many different ways. I don't want to project too much of my own beliefs onto your experience, but it sounds like one of those awakenings which fascinate me and which I am sometimes envious of.

I agree that its a matter of being opening and flexible - I guess that, for whatever reason, there are different paths different people have to take to get there.

I'd rather say jealousy is appropriate, as I have no right to it that you lack. You need to follow your heart to shattering, to contrition. You don't know how to do that off the cuff, nor do I, but some stuff matters to you, and you'll feel the pains, you'll feel the tears when you start hitting the right notes, and it is the way your emotions will react to your interrogation of yourself. You don't yet know what you think and feel or are really like, so you have to start asking yourself, and when you begin to feel the remorse for the ways you are, grab that line for dear life, and hold the hell on. Yeah, no one likes going through that, but you need to be shattered to be primed for change.

Excellent topic, excellent discussion. If you haven't, have a listen to this guy.



What I particularly like is the way he does not speak from on high; he excludes neither himself nor 'the professionals' from the traumatised.

you'll feel the pains, you'll feel the tears when you start hitting the right notes, and it is the way your emotions will react to your interrogation of yourself. You don't yet know what you think and feel or are really like, so you have to start asking yourself, and when you begin to feel the remorse for the ways you are, grab that line for dear life, and hold the hell on — All sight

This is the great difficulty, that the world one wants to reach is the world one fled from. To live is to be vulnerable, and having been hurt, one recoils from vulnerability even as one feels the hurt of isolation.

So I am seeking an end to isolation, but I have 'trust issues', because I have been hurt before. People who should have cared for me did not, and so, before I trust my friend, my lover, my therapist with the infinite depth of my vulnerability, I want to be certain of their love. But the tragedy is that love is like a rope, the only way to test its breaking point is to break it. Don't do it! Every relationship has a breaking point, and every time I find it, it confirms that no one can be trusted. Hold on, indeed, to all the broken ropes, add whatever thread you can, and thus I'll get by with a little help from my friends.

I had a similar experience on salvia, in which this inner demon was revealed as a pontificating coward and a scared parasite. The obsessive self mockery, abuse and violent intrusive thoughts that characterise my 'second thoughts' were revealed as a coping mechanism to put the world at a distance, due to fear of dependency developed from growing up in an abusive household with traumatised adults (polygamous cult of personality made out of mostly mentally ill people). I self distanced to the extent that I used to feel incredibly exposed whenever someone intuited anything about my mental state or preferences, even if it was just that I was having a good day, or a bad one. Constant stoicism as an affectation to cover the vulnerabilities of a mind warped around unstable attachments.

Eventually this distancing somatized and I developed dissociative disorder; giving me absence seizures, but more recently I've been sufficiently connected to myself (as a result of two talented therapists) to fully develop the intrusive thoughts and trigger scenarios of PTSD, so finally I'm getting effective treatment rather than addressing symptomatic comorbidities (depression, anxiety, dissociative disorder and hallucinations).

Another angle is a condition known as scruples. Some Catholic saints had it. I think it's a coping mechanism. Maybe that author will mention it.

The really scary part is that you have to be sane enough to know something is wrong with you, to know that you're crazy. Those seeking help are far saner than those offering it almost always. Believe me, I can tell by looking.

I had a therapist red face yelling at me over the summer, and display an almost disgust at my level of vulnerability. People don't pity me when I walk in the room either, particularly not mediocre frumpy men. He's lucky he was through a tv sceen. I just had a big manic break down, and needed a doctors note for work for a little time off. He wanted to medicate me, even though I was not at that time manic, and I pretty much told him that I didn't think that he knew how to help me, but I needed the diagnosis, so he told me that if I didn't agree to do what he told me, then I didn't have bi-polar, or a medical issue, even though he just got down telling me that I did. So I told him that he was being unfair and unreasonable, as not agreeing to his treatment doesn't mean I no longer have it, obviously. Then he got all super pissed off, so I told him he was an arrogant prick and left basically.

People who should have cared for me did not, and so, before I trust my friend, my lover, my therapist with the infinite depth of my vulnerability, I want to be certain of their love. But the tragedy is that love is like a rope, the only way to test its breaking point is to break it. Don't do it! Every relationship has a breaking point, and every time I find it, it confirms that no one can be trusted. — unenlightened

Exactly. This has been what has most hamstrung me in both therapeutic and romantic relationships. There's something to if of that thing Sartre says about vertigo - about how the fear isn't of the heights but of ones freedom to throw oneself of the edge. So the distrust of the other person is equally the distrust of myself.

Edgar Allen Poe wrote about the 'imp of the perverse.'

"Induction, a posteriori, would have brought phrenology to admit, as an innate and primitive principle of human action, a paradoxical something, which we may call perverseness, for want of a more characteristic term[...] Through its promptings we act, for the reason that we should not. In theory, no reason can be more unreasonable, but, in fact, there is none more strong. "

The language, admittedly, has the distinctive ring of the pseudo-scientific charlatan, but.... he gives an interesting example, one that is almost a commentary on his style itself:

"There lives no man who at some period has not been tormented, for example, by an earnest desire to tantalize a listener by circumlocution. The speaker is aware that he displeases; he has every intention to please, he is usually curt, precise, and clear, the most laconic and luminous language is struggling for utterance upon his tongue, it is only with difficulty that he restrains himself from giving it flow; he dreads and deprecates the anger of him whom he addresses; yet, the thought strikes him, that by certain involutions and parentheses this anger may be engendered. That single thought is enough. The impulse increases to a wish, the wish to a desire, the desire to an uncontrollable longing, and the longing (to the deep regret and mortification of the speaker, and in defiance of all consequences) is indulged."

That's one of the thorny aspects of the 'repetition compulsion' that stems from trauma - how conscious attempts to circumvent it often up being the very thing repeating it.

I feel like somehow it all comes down to the inability to remain with silence. Especially in the presence of another.

For what its worth, here's my recounting of the LSD experience, as texted to my friend:


i had a weird lsd experience last night. very fluid sense of space, room shifting around a lot. whenever i would go to the bathroom, it would shift around and become a different, realer bathroom. there was a malevolent presence behind me. the door became ajar, with white light.

i was very young.

what kept happening was a struggle to be older. it was like the malevolent presence needed me to be young. i would feel myself becoming older and taller, and more present to the room. it was like i could leave through the door by doing nothing but simply standing self-assertively in the room as if to disregard the presence.

i wasnt scared of the presence, and i remember feeling like i knew this scenario and room, and had been scared in the past. however i wasnt able to fully go through with the whole scene because dan was tripping too and i felt weird about being in the bathroom too long. that was kind of frustrating.

i feel like the malevolent presence is somehow tied to philosophy and intellectualizing.

i remember the feeling was close to a master/slave thing. there was something to it of being a kid in time out and angry, and like my anger was externalized and it was a faustian deal almost like : if you are quiet and dont mess with me, ill take control and protect you.

the thing is we put on a record after and played music and there was some relinquishing of control and it felt like the music was working on me and unthawing me, in a way thats difficult to explain. in some ways like a spiritual and emptional massaging out of knots. Memories would pop up as if released. and these feelings that were bodily and emptional at the same time. it only went so far, and i drifted out of it as i came down. i feel like thats the closest ive come to confronting the core of my self-defense, but im also disappointed the confrontration feels incomplete and interrupted.

I can relate to a lot of what you describe, especially the parasitic aspect. I was particuarly bothered, as a kid, by certain representations of parasitism (in cartoons, in the game parasite eve etc). The reasons for that feeling are starting to make more sense now.

I've also had the experience, especially at work, of being very uncomfortable with the idea that people around me can tell something about what I'm feeling, also to the point where I sometimes dissociate. I work as a dispatcher, and I've had times where I've dispatched calls while being entirely unaware of what I'm doing, and suddenly snapping back. One of the weird things for me has been that, on the phone, I often rely on an automatic 'persona' which is laid-back and friendly, and I've had drivers develop a warmness toward me which has at times been really confusing.

Kudos on finding effective treatment - I feel like I'm getting closer myself (in terms of finding the core issue, rather than (mis)treating the symptoms) but its still early for me.

Another angle is a condition known as scruples. Some Catholic saints had it. I think it's a coping mechanism. Maybe that author will mention it. — frank

Yeah, I think scrupulosity stems from a similar place. Have you read much about Luther?

I had a therapist red face yelling at me over the summer, and display an almost disgust at my level of vulnerability. People don't pity me when I walk in the room either, particularly not mediocre frumpy men. He's lucky he was through a tv sceen. I just had a big manic break down, and needed a doctors note for work for a little time off. He wanted to medicate me, even though I was not at that time manic, and I pretty much told him that I didn't think that he knew how to help me, but I needed the diagnosis, so he told me that if I didn't agree to do what he told me, then I didn't have bi-polar, or a medical issue, even though he just got down telling me that I did. So I told him that he was being unfair and unreasonable, as not agreeing to his treatment doesn't mean I no longer have it, obviously. Then he got all super pissed off, so I told him he was an arrogant prick and left basically. — All sight

It sounds like a difficult experience, but I do want to challenge the way you've framed it.

You say first that his response stemmed from a disgust at your vulnerability.

But then you say this:

I pretty much told him that I didn't think that he knew how to help me, but I needed the diagnosis, so he told me that if I didn't agree to do what he told me, then I didn't have bi-polar, or a medical issue, even though he just got down telling me that I did. So I told him that he was being unfair and unreasonable, as not agreeing to his treatment doesn't mean I no longer have it, obviously. Then he got all super pissed off

That sounds less like disgust with vulnerability and more like frustration with the invulnerability that accompanies willful self-assertion. I've also noticed that those in the psychiatric field respond strongly to any pushback from their clients, so I'm not taking his side. Willfull self-assertion is often necessary and its important to advocate for oneself. Nevertheless, there are two different accounts in your post of what sparked his response.

Yeah, I think scrupulosity stems from a similar place. Have you read much about Luther? — csalisbury

Erik Erickson's book. Did he have it?

Did my therapist you mean?

I meant: did Luther have scrupulosity?

yeah in spades. He was often convinced he was going to hell. Very preoccupied with doing the right stuff to prevent that. Then falling into despair. Then coming up with a renewed idea of what constituted the right stuff. And so on.

I don't know much about Erikson. From what little I know, I think the conversation in this thread corresponds most to his shame/autonomy stage. Did Erikson talk about Luther?