1. One has a memory of some thing, call it "x".
2. The thing that the memory of "x" is about or refers to is x.
3. Therefore, the memory refers to wherever x happens to be.

What's the issue?

3. Therefore, the memory refers to wherever x happens to be. — Mentalusion

What's the "wherever" part denoting?

wherever x is. If x is here, then here. If x is there, then there. If x is everywhere, then everywhere.

In other words, at some spatio-TEMPORAL location, call it "y". In that case, x is at y.

Suppose we have a memory of something.

Ontologically speaking, where does that memory refer to? — Wallows

How about this approach (I find it consistent with what Mentalusion is saying):

Memory is the (re-)experiencing of a previously obtained experience. The latter can either be of the external world or of internal cognitive givens (e.g., dreams, or else formerly obtained ideas). Hence, memories refer to previously obtained experiences.

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BTW, how do you guys insert the link of “@username”?

BTW, how do you guys insert the link of “@username”? — javra

Insert name in @ "name" .

Insert name in @name. — Wallows

:smile: Just saw that. Cool

:up:

Suppose we have a memory of something.

Ontologically speaking, where does that memory refer to? — Wallows

The use of "where" in relation to "refer to" puzzles me. The ordinary use is to connect one term or idea to another. Something like: When I speak of heartless cretins, I am referring to my employers."
The use of "where" is kind of a poetic repurposing or transposition of that syntax.

The first thought I had was of the use of "memory palaces", techniques to keep what is remembered in a structure that facilitates retrieval or reuse. Short term memories turn into long term memories by either training or strong emotion (and maybe for other reasons).

I don't know how much an observation of of the sort I just made is ontological versus other kinds of "logic."

I've been reading into the Loci technique, for instantiating or obtaining of memory retrieval. When, we instantiate a subject into a Cartesian plane, then, some coordinate map is necesaary.

If I were to say that this place, that is, the logical space that this forum occupies, is special. Then how do I reference this "place"?

And if there is a map, there is a territory.
I am interested in how techniques become mixed up with descriptions of what is happening.
In my work, a map is given to me and I have to make another one on top of it to make it "real."
It is like a book one has read carefully, every part is connected to the other parts.

And if there is a map, there is a territory. — Valentinus

But, General Semantics says, that the map is not the territory. If it is not, then what is it?

You can hold the map in your hands. You can put a compass on it so that you point yourself in alignment with with the arrows on the map. It is a set of operations within your control.

When you start walking, you might find the map is not quite right, bears may attack you without warning, there was no mention of the swamp you will have to circumvent.

If you survive, you might want to make a new map.

If you survive, you might want to make a new map. — Valentinus

My map is irrelevant. The map of the World is of more utility here.

Suppose we have a memory of something.

Ontologically speaking, where does that memory refer to? — Wallows

Because we don't have direct contact with reality--we only have sensory input which we develop into more or less consistent images, sounds, odors, textures, flavors--memory can only be an experience of images derived from the senses.

Let's pay a visit to our underground ontology lab. First we fasten you to an immovable chair with duct tape in front of a screen. Then we leave the dark room and lock the door. You are instructed to report whatever you are remember. The following word appear on the screen:

Christmas

Tell us what are you remembering, Wallows! (we have ways of making you talk...)

Images of Christmas trees? the smell of cinnamon and apples? decorated urban streets? boxes wrapped in colorful paper? gingerbread cookies? sweetness? Saint Nicholas? incense at Midnight Mass? Shopping at Target? Angry people trying to get out of the parking lot? Screaming children? cursing adults? The feeling of overwhelming dread? ...

What could your memories be but reactivated sensory input. Perhaps some of your memories are from A Nightmare Before Christmas. Is any reference made at all?

Donald Trump

Robert Mueller

...

That map of the world is held by you. I didn't say you came up with all of it. On the other hand, no map handed to you is free of your design.

The point I am trying to make is not about finding the author. You asked for a distinction. Does it suffice?

The point I am trying to make is not about finding the author. You asked for a distinction. Does it suffice? — Valentinus

The author of a book in inseparable from the works itself, no?

Christmas — Bitter Crank

What does "Christmas" denote in your mind?

Happy holidays!

On the contrary.
The need for separation gives birth to the book.

On the contrary.
The need for separation gives birth to the book. — Valentinus

How does that process work?

If a map is important, and not just a poster on the wall, you want to travel to another place.

You have to leave one place to go to another.

That doesn't answer the question of how the process works because I can only apply that sort of explanation for things under my control or for things I am pretending I can control.

If a map is important, and not just a poster on the wall, you want to travel to another place.

You have to leave one place to go to another.

That doesn't answer the question of how the process works because I can only apply that sort of explanation for things under my control or for things I am pretending I can control. — Valentinus

A map is important because it designates a reality of its own. Dimensionality? How does one jump from a two-dimensional plane that is the map, and the world that exists in many dimensions?

You asking for a better map. When you run into the mountains, a topographical map is helpful. Maybe I won't just walk due north.

There is a divide that is fundamental to the map/territory thing that I sense you are not willing to embrace.

Maybe you could answer questions too.

Maybe you could answer questions too. — Valentinus

What questions do you have for me?

I think, the type-token distinction or the map-territory distinction is important; but, can be deflated into a less ambiguous proposition. How is this done?

I can summon two particular scent memories which "Christmas" stimulates: the odor of musty newspaper in which Christmas tree decorations were wrapped (and stored in a damp basement). The penetrating odor of volatile chemicals in the shellac we used in grade school to finish horrid art projects which we were supposed to force on parents as Christmas gifts.

Do these scent memories refer to anything beyond a mental experience? Only more mental experiences: the dimly lit and unpleasant cellar; the pine tree on which the ornaments were hung; the elementary school building and its classrooms...

My memories--your memories--anyone's memories--are the same: impressions from sensory input one step removed from a supposedly concrete world. What can the refer to but the now vanished sensory input?

What if you were in a situation where the propositions ran out?

What if what happens calls you out because whatever you prepared for or not is shown in awful relief to be just a story compared to other stories?

I have had my perceptions cancelled in real time by suddenly becoming aware of what I had not been aware of before the cancellation.

So, what do you mean by "can be deflated into a less ambiguous proposition?" Presuming, for the moment we are talking about the same things.

Interesting. So, would you say that our collective consciousness denotes Christmas or is it something else?

What if you were in a situation where the propositions ran out? — Valentinus

Can you provide an example?

I can.

But I don't feel like an equal partner in this conversation.

None of my challenges are worth taking up but yours are given to you by whatever you see is not provided by my explanations.

I am not that harsh even to myself. Which is saying something.

But I don't feel like an equal partner in this conversation. — Valentinus

What am I doing wrong here?

Sorry.