Its ok to not feel connected to that stuff, you should embrace the alienation. It will liberate you to live according to your own values, and you can figure out for yourself how you want to and to what degree you want to be connected with the rest of mankind. I recommend social contract theory to start.

Its ok to not feel connected to that stuff, you should embrace the alienation. — DingoJones

But, the feeling is dysphoric. Marx talked about alienation from the means of production. What about simple alienation from humanity?

It will liberate you to live according to your own values, and you can figure out for yourself how you want to and to what degree you want to be connected with the rest of mankind. — DingoJones

That's actually true. But, as much as I love and hate Schopenhauer, one cannot live in a perpetual sense of alienation for too long. Can you?

I recommend social contract theory to start. — DingoJones

Oh, that's interesting. So, please expand so I can learn from you on it.

Well, you said you were different. If you reflect on exactly how, you can begin to live according to whatever standards suit you. It seems like right now you are burdened by some social programming that doesnt suit you. Get rid of it, and the disphoria should go along with it.
You wont be alienated from everyone, at least I find it hard to imagine you cant relate to anyone at all. You just get more choosey about where to place your compassion and social efforts.
Social contract theory has a decently accurate wikki entry to get you started. Its basically a simple way of viewing the kinds of interactions you are talking about but without the baggage of sweeping principals that humans burden each other with. There is security in those burdens for some, but perhaps you are the kind of person who doesnt get much out if it and are in the process of realizing that.

Well, you said you were different. If you reflect on exactly how, you can begin to live according to whatever standards suit you. — DingoJones

So, this is essentially Nietzschean perspective. To create your own values, yes?

It seems like right now you are burdened by some social programming that doesnt suit you. Get rid of it, and the disphoria should go along with it. — DingoJones

But, the alienation persists. What do you do about that?

You wont be alienated from everyone, at least I find it hard to imagine you cant relate to anyone at all. — DingoJones

That's true. I feel closest to Buddhists and the like. I'm actually contemplating in the back of my mind to join an ashram.

Social contract theory has a decently accurate wikki entry to get you started. Its basically a simple way of viewing the kinds of interactions you are talking about but without the baggage of sweeping principals that humans burden each other with. — DingoJones

But, alienation essentially rips apart the social contract we are born with. How do you prevent that destructive urge to rip it apart?

There is security in those burdens for some, but perhaps you are the kind of person who doesnt get much out if it and are in the process of realizing that. — DingoJones

What do you mean?

What do you mean? — Wallows

That it seems like you dont need those common values, you dont feel the same way about them as other people.

But, alienation essentially rips apart the social contract we are born with. How do you prevent that destructive urge to rip it apart? — Wallows

Dont resist it, you dont sound like it doesnt much for you, why hang onto it? You dont sound like your relating to it. I mean I can’t speak for you, you gotta self reflect on what works for you.

But, the alienation persists. What do you do about that? — Wallows

Im not sure I can help with that. For myself, im comfortable being alienated. It doesnt much bother me. I have people close to me, thats enough.

So, this is essentially Nietschian perspective. To create your own values, yes? — Wallows

I think you already have values, you just have them
cluttered up with other values you dont seem to share.

It's interesting that you narrowed down this discussion about "values". I think this is worth expanding on if you don't mind?

What do you value? I value freedom and liberty. I also value peace and prosperity. I went to college to study economics some 4-5 years back. I can't say I got anything out of it, and don't know how to guarantee prosperity without adhering to rational self-interest. I'm stuck in this American mentality and profess it to some extent that people ought to choose what they think is in their best interest. But, if I were to have kids, I'd probably micro-manage their lives...

Thoughts?

You lost me, how do those things connect to your other posts? There is alot going on in that last post, but Im not sure it relates to what im saying.

You lost me, how do those things connect to your other posts? There is alot going on in that last post, but Im not sure it relates to what im saying. — DingoJones

I'm essentially, trying to align my "values" with other's to dispel the alienation and find my place in the world. So, I shared my values, and even showed what I went to college for. What do you think?

Namely, that many (not all) people are selfish and egotistical. They want money so they can lead better lifestyles. We consume more than we need. Wants for "stuff" dictate our lives. The majority, do jobs that make them unhappy, and only to further this goal for personal satisfaction. If you zoom out, it seems like a sorry predicament with no end in sight. — Wallows

1. Egotism and selfishness are in our genes.
2. Just because people want more stuff doesn't mean that not wanting stuff will make them content.

Therefore, I have arrived at the conclusion that I am different in so many ways from other people, that it causes me to feel alienated from humanity. — Wallows

3. You are not all that unique. "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." (Henry David Thoreau, American Transcendentalist)
4. The Human Condition is, in fact, a sad state of affairs a good share of the time.

you should embrace the alienation — DingoJones

5. Alienation is a wretched feeling. Making connections to other people is the antidote.

Wallows: One of the ways you ARE different from many people is that you are drilling deeper into the reality of your life than most people do. It's a risky exercise. Do it anyway, but pay attention to #5: make connection with other people. Sorry, the cure for alienation isn't quite as simple as plugging in a toaster.

The Philosophy Forum is a safe way of making long-distance mostly anonymous connection with other people, and that's worth something. But aim for at least a few flesh and blood up-close-and-personal connections.

And Merry Christmas.

5. Alienation is a wretched feeling. Making connections to other people is the antidote. — Bitter Crank

For some. ‍♂️

I'm essentially, trying to align my "values" with other's to dispel the alienation and find my place in the world. So, I shared my values, and even showed what I went to college for. What do you think? — Wallows

Well I dont know you, so its hard to say whats best. Aligning my values with other peoples values doesnt make me happy, it makes me unhappy. But that's me. All I can offer is that if your having trouble aligning your values to other peoples values, maybe thats whats different about you and you might do better to just do your own thing. Share what values you must with others to honor yiur social contracts but shed those values thst ferl burdensome.
Im probably not the best candidate to give you insight here, Rank seems to have ready answers for you though. :)

The automacy evident in consumerism or the "fetishism of commodities", if you will, points to a process that cannot fulfill our deepest needs. But the fact that people pursue those ends doesn't measure how much they desire something more by itself. There are all kinds of ways to tread water in life. It is easy to judge others accordingly.

There is a passage from the Gnostic Gospel of Phillip that speaks to this:

"A donkey turning a millstone walked a hundred miles. When it was set loose, it found itself in the same place. Some people travel long distances but get nowhere. By nightfall they have seen no cities or villages, nothing man-made or natural, no powers or angels. These miserable people have labored in vain."

Our condition, taken without reference to our struggles, leaves much unknown. And that relates to another passage from the same book:

"People who are slaves against their will can be free. People who are freed by favor of their master and then sell themselves back into slavery cannot be free again."

So that is a judgment but not one made by others. Perhaps it can be observed.

Having wandered this far into the Christian register, I might as well go a little further. The experience of darkness and isolation may not measure distance between people but seasons of one's soul. John Donne throws this sort of thing down pretty well. Since he speaks to this season in the literal sense of the word, here is:

A Nocturnal upon St. Lucy's Day:

'Tis the year's midnight, and it is the day's,
Lucy's, who scarce seven hours herself unmasks;
The sun is spent, and now his flasks
Send forth light squibs, no constant rays;
The world's whole sap is sunk;
The general balm th' hydroptic earth hath drunk,
Whither, as to the bed's feet, life is shrunk,
Dead and interr'd; yet all these seem to laugh,
Compar'd with me, who am their epitaph.

Study me then, you who shall lovers be
At the next world, that is, at the next spring;
For I am every dead thing,
In whom Love wrought new alchemy.
For his art did express
A quintessence even from nothingness,
From dull privations, and lean emptiness;
He ruin'd me, and I am re-begot
Of absence, darkness, death: things which are not.
All others, from all things, draw all that's good,
Life, soul, form, spirit, whence they being have;
I, by Love's limbec, am the grave
Of all that's nothing. Oft a flood
Have we two wept, and so
Drown'd the whole world, us two; oft did we grow
To be two chaoses, when we did show
Care to aught else; and often absences
Withdrew our souls, and made us carcasses.

But I am by her death (which word wrongs her)
Of the first nothing the elixir grown;
Were I a man, that I were one
I needs must know; I should prefer,
If I were any beast,
Some ends, some means; yea plants, yea stones detest,
And love; all, all some properties invest;
If I an ordinary nothing were,
As shadow, a light and body must be here.

But I am none; nor will my sun renew.
You lovers, for whose sake the lesser sun
At this time to the Goat is run
To fetch new lust, and give it you,
Enjoy your summer all;
Since she enjoys her long night's festival,
Let me prepare towards her, and let me call
This hour her vigil, and her eve, since this
Both the year's, and the day's deep midnight is.

- John Donne

1. Egotism and selfishness are in our genes. — Bitter Crank

Yet, compassion, altruism, and acts of kindness exist. How does that supplant your position on our genes?

2. Just because people want more stuff doesn't mean that not wanting stuff will make them content. — Bitter Crank

Then they ought to appreciate more! Appreciation for all the things that we hold dear leads to happiness.

3. You are not all that unique. "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." (Henry David Thoreau, American Transcendentalist) — Bitter Crank

Sad, and true.

4. The Human Condition is, in fact, a sad state of affairs a good share of the time. — Bitter Crank

This is your bitterness speaking. We do keep on living and try our best to make other lives less miserable than our own. Those very acts of kindness and charity, are perhaps the sole defining characteristic of human beings.

5. Alienation is a wretched feeling. Making connections to other people is the antidote. — Bitter Crank

Should I join an ashram? I'm seriously contemplating it as some solution to my malaise... I wish I could move to India and live in the presence of the Dali Lama.

Wallows: One of the ways you ARE different from many people is that you are drilling deeper into the reality of your life than most people do. It's a risky exercise. Do it anyway, but pay attention to #5: make connection with other people. Sorry, the cure for alienation isn't quite as simple as plugging in a toaster. — Bitter Crank

Thanks Bitter Crank! I try and dig safely. One of my dreams was getting lost in a forest alongside a mountain. The shortest pathway through that mountain was through it. Haha.

Well I dont know you, so its hard to say whats best. Aligning my values with other peoples values doesnt make me happy, it makes me unhappy. But that's me. All I can offer is that if your having trouble aligning your values to other peoples values, maybe thats whats different about you and you might do better to just do your own thing. — DingoJones

Hmm. I think the natural response or the primary response to alienation is a feeling of bewilderment and feeling lost. I don't feel lost, or at least not as lost as I once felt I was. The feeling crystalizes in the process of individualization. Which, might be an interesting side issue to entertain.

hare what values you must with others to honor yiur social contracts but shed those values thst ferl burdensome.
Im probably not the best candidate to give you insight here, Rank seems to have ready answers for you though. :) — DingoJones

Thanks. But, doesn't the role or lack thereof of the duty or imperative play any role here?

The automacy evident in consumerism or the "fetishism of commodities", if you will, points to a process that cannot fulfill our deepest needs. — Valentinus

Is this just psychobabble, or can these deepest needs ever be addressed?

Well, is your desire to chart a path from what you find unacceptable "psychobabble" ?

Strictly speaking, in terms of what you have quoted of my remarks, I am just rephrasing your observation that there is little satisfaction in only pursing material goods alone.

Have I misunderstood you?

Well, is your desire to chart a path from what you find unacceptable "psychobabble" ? — Valentinus

Idk, these are just feelings that I have and have tried to rationalize into something seemingly coherent.

Strictly speaking, in terms of what you have quoted of my remarks, I am just rephrasing your observation that there is little satisfaction in only pursing material goods alone. — Valentinus

Well, yes. I guess you can say that you are saying what I'm saying in different words.

Have I misunderstood you? — Valentinus

Possibly. If you can expand on what you think are one's deepest needs, then that might help.

Possibly. If you can expand on what you think are one's deepest needs, then that might help. — Wallows

I was trying to expand upon that with the other portion of my remarks. I understand that it may not be helpful. What resonates with me may not resonate with you.

On the other hand, I don't argue from that register. It is just a description of what speaks to me. I have argued for approaches in other discussions with you about what might help. I have pretty much shown you where i am coming from. I am not sure if I have the best way to look at the matters discussed but I am confident that I have not put words in your mouth.

What are my words? Translating other people's words into your own is the beginning of conversation. Sometimes it is the end of it. Transcribing other people's thoughts into your own words is the essence of the dialectic. Especially when you do not agree with the words in your mouth.

When people decline a challenge on that basis, it means either two things. It is beneath them as a problem worth addressing or the words do not mean anything so is not a predicate that could be either confirmed or denied.

We all say stuff. Silence is a big part of listening.

I see. So, we are two parrots. :)

Yes.
Until proven otherwise.
:smile:

They want money so they can lead better lifestyles. — Wallows

Life is about experiences, and the value of money offers little if all you do is buy objects. Go do things, ideally, but not necessarily, with others who appreciate the journey with you. How can you be sad spelunking, scuba diving, dog sledding, or waking up in a far away land? And it hardly needs to be that unusual. It can be as little as finding an old tent and a sleeping bag and going to the mountains. Go sign up for karate lessons at the county rec office. Buy a bird. Learn to speak French really poorly. Do whatever. Live life and don't be timid.

Your primary experience as far as I can tell is moping. Pick something else to do.

moping — Hanover

*Wallowing.