It's isn't anything. What I'm saying is that your intimation that people who suggest a first moment of existence are no suggesting there was a state of nothingness from which the first moment popped into being from. Its a contradiction, you know that. You're essentially begging the question in favor of your own position, namely that there was always some kind of state which is the very thing you're supposed to be arguing for. Even here you're attempting this despite thrice telling you that's not what is meant. It's disingenuous. It's not the suggestion that there was a state of non existence, but that there was no state at all because there wasn't anything. — MindForged
My point, which you didn't even attempt to address, was that you haven't given anything like a useful definition of existence. No one is doubting that there are things which exist, what I'm doubting is how you're going about defining that term. — MindForged
It's isn't anything. What I'm saying is that your intimation that people who suggest a first moment of existence are no suggesting there was a state of nothingness from which the first moment popped into being from. Its a contradiction, you know that. You're essentially begging the question in favor of your own position, namely that there was always some kind of state which is the very thing you're supposed to be arguing for. Even here you're attempting this despite thrice telling you that's not what is meant. It's disingenuous. It's not the suggestion that there was a state of non existence, but that there was no state at all because there wasn't anything. — MindForged
I'll come out and say what others are thinking: this is nonsense. — Banno
we do not have anything substantial to go on for ascertaining why anything exists. You tried making comparisons to thinking things popping into existence being absurd and suggesting it violates conservation of energy. These are facts about things within the existing world, not explanations for why reality exists. — MindForged
Existence exists and nonexistence does not exist. — daniel j lavender
Is existence a being? — bloodninja
Only beings exist. — bloodninja
Being is not a being however so being cannot exist. — bloodninja
In other words only entities exist and because being is not itself an entity it cannot be said to exist without an ontological confusion occurring.
Perhaps you're equivocating? — bloodninja
To accept that existence is, or that being is, or that things exist, leads to the question concerning where things, or where existence, originate from, in which I assert there was no origin to "things", or no origin to "existence", as such an origin would imply a state of nonexistence and nonexistence does not exist by definition. — daniel j lavender
"Origin" is often viewed as "beginning" or a "source". Of which I contend there was no origin, there was no beginning, there was no source concerning existence therefore such an inquiry would be erroneous to begin with. As your statements seem to imply. — daniel j lavender
Hence my statement in the original essay:
"Existence is infinite, however, our limited perspective creates an illusion of limitation. From this perspective we are inclined to create measurements of existence although existence is essentially immeasurable."
We may not be able to entirely observe that which is infinite, but that doesn't mean it is not infinite. — daniel j lavender
Certain things must be discussed, they must be argued, as actual measurement or observation would not be feasible. — daniel j lavender
Tell me, where does existence end? How would existence end? — daniel j lavender
Is the smallest thing (to us) really the smallest thing? Or does it appear to be the smallest thing due to our limited abilities and our limited range of interaction? — daniel j lavender
Is existence really limited, or are we limiting it ourselves? — daniel j lavender
Existence, as observations, is not limited, it's indefinite. — Echarmion
So in a sense, you agree. — daniel j lavender
We agree that it has no end, for the reaons stated. — Echarmion
But what are we arguing about, exactly? Existence, as constructed by us through observations, or objective reality? — Echarmion
The aforementioned premise also applies to a beginning, or an origin concerning existence. — daniel j lavender
I am arguing that objectively existence is infinite. Existence could be viewed as infinite subjectively as well, however, I am asserting that our limited perspective (the fact that we, as individuals, are born, then die -- we are limited in duration; that we cannot simply reach out and touch Mars or Saturn -- we are limited in our range of interaction; that we can only see so far out into the universe, even with technologies [we can't even see through hillsides or through the palms of our hands] -- we are limited in perspective, etc.) creates an inclination to measure, or limit, existence. — daniel j lavender
Actually, the very idea of being able to view existence as infinite, or being able to view existence as finite, subjectively, further alludes to the objective fact that existence itself is infinite, as all aspects are accounted for and none are excluded (it is unlimited, unrestricted). — daniel j lavender
If existence is based on observation, then the limits of observation are also the limits of existence. These limits are not imposed on existence by us, they are intrinsic to it. — Echarmion
If existence is not based on observation, I.e. it is " objective", then we would need a way to gain information about it that is not observation. What is this method? — Echarmion
This sounds reasonable, but it does not follow. It is not more likely that "objective reality" is infinite because observed reality has no borders. That would imply that observed reality is a part of objective reality, rather than, say, an illusion caused by it. Since we don't know, we cannot draw any inference. — Echarmion
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