Douglas Adams was right

mcdoodle

It seems dolphins might have a language as complex as our own.

http://www.sciencealert.com/researchers-have-witnessed-dolphins-talking-to-one-another

It's a flimsy piece of research so far. Two dolphins appear to be talking to each other, and the researchers infer grammatical structure and a potentially large lexicon.

All the same...how about that? The supposed uniqueness of human (capacity for) language is the cornerstone of many a debate. As I was only saying to my local feral geese this afternoon down by the canal. (The crows listened, but only cawed cautiously)

Barry Etheridge

I'll believe it when they give their first Powerpoint presentation! (The dolphins, that is. I assume the scientists have been doing it since they were knee high to sea anemones!)

andrewk

On the contrary, giving PowerPoint presentations appears to be negatively correlated with intelligence. PowerPoint is the death of effective communication.

shmik

All the same...how about that? The supposed uniqueness of human (capacity for) language is the cornerstone of many a debate. As I was only saying to my local feral geese this afternoon down by the canal. (The crows listened, but only cawed cautiously) — mcdoodle

I wander what's actually at stake here, suppose we confirm that they have an extensive language, does that impact any of your philosophical (or non-philosophical) views?

Punshhh

I watched a nature programme recently in which tapping sounds had been detected being made by aphids. A kind of morse code, or something more like a language perhaps.

Baden

It seems dolphins might have a language as complex as our own. — mcdoodle

They almost certainly don't. There are dozens of aspects to human language that make it unique including novel word formation, word modification, negation, questioning, abstraction, temporal displacement, the ability to make counterfactual, hypothetical and fictional utterances, open-endedness, recursivity, stimulus freedom and so on. And we can thank all that for the enormously complex social structures we have in place as humans. If dolphin language possessed even a handful of the attributes above, the first thing they would be able to do is to preserve information from generation to generation. And one of the first bits of information they would likely pass on is "Stay away from humans!"

If that were to happen, the annual Japanese dolphin drive hunt at Tajii, for example, would be a lot less bloody.

It's interesting news, and dolphins may turn out to have some very rudimentary form of language that makes human language somewhat less unique than we presently understand it to be. But, really, I'd be extremely surprised if it were to be anything more than that.

BC

↪Punshhh

That organisms communicate isn't in doubt. Birds, for one, noticeably communicate a lot. Plants communicate -- chemically. They issue simple relevant messages to like kinds, "being chewed on". Communication requires only mutually recognizable signals, not language. While clicking aphids may communicate, they don't have a language of clicks.

Going up the evolutionary ladder to dogs (who are more amenable to neurological study than dolphins), we find they are closer to us than mere signaling. When you talk to your dog, it's left and right hemispheres are processing what the dog can make sense of in the same way that we do -- emotive loading in the right hemisphere, word meaning (sit, speak, lay down, good dog, drop it, shut up, etc.) in the left hemisphere.

mcdoodle

I wander what's actually at stake here, suppose we confirm that they have an extensive language, does that impact any of your philosophical (or non-philosophical) views? — shmik

It doesn't greatly impact my own views, in that I think of our animal-ness as a continuum with the rest of the animal kingdom. But many people hold the uniqueness of human language as a pivotal axiom, that's why I mentioned it. Indeed, I've seen many posters on the old forum inadvertently contrast 'human' to 'animal', it is quite an ingrained way of thinking.

mcdoodle

↪Baden

My citation of Douglas Adams was meant to add a veneer of wryness to my remarks. Still, I think some animals are more cultural than you imagine, and even quite small-brained animals pass skills and knowledge on to their young and their fellows. I've had an abiding interest in the great tit, partly of course because of the provocative name, and partly because of the famous period in the 1920's when the tit population of Britain seemed to learn how to open the bottle tops of milk left on the doorstep at remarkable speed. Here's a Nature piece from a couple of years ago about cultural transmission among great tits, which have been observed over many generations now:

http://www.nature.com/articles/nature13998.epdf?referrer_access_token=kibGvfYBJkARgv7jeJUtAdRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0NGQeKg-mcpc9swFq3F1OX6zFTLKn5GSEU6xheT3JBKEUQovhF4J6bvd7exfmBF7Hi3a7riiEeoLWkgGTGlP-Ps

I'm inclined to imagine that orca, and some others among the whales /dolphins, do have oral histories, as it seems some primates than us do, in a limited way. Knowledge of skills and localities passes between generations of all sorts of creatures, but is not greatly studied.

Punshhh

↪Bitter Crank

Yes, I agree with this. My point is that most animals communicate, often in complex ways. Also they can be very good at learning and understanding of aspects of their environment, or their evolutionary niche and communicating it. People have improved on this by adding a level of conscious conceptual thought, with a consequent subtly complex language. But we have not progressed far from our supposedly unconscious relations in the biosphere.

Barry Etheridge

But we have not progressed far from our supposedly unconscious relations in the biosphere. — Punshhh

Tough crowd. I would have thought that as a member of a philosophy forum you would have to admit that it is far enough to be a pretty big gulf. There are two huge advances which your membership demonstrates every day in remote communication (writing and then other forms of recording and transmission) and meta-cognition (the ability to think about thinking) and certainly demand attention. Existential angst may be a strange thing to advance as an .. er .. advance but it does demonstrate a complexity far beyond anything that dolphins who may (or may not!) have developed a rudimentary grammar evidence. We may one day be able to translate into dolphin but the topics of the conversation are going to be extremely limited. I can't imagine that it will include Platonic Idealism or Kantian Metaphysics!

Baden

My citation of Douglas Adams was meant to add a veneer of wryness to my remarks. — mcdoodle

I gotcha. The article just seemed a bit click-baitish to me. People tend to want to believe stuff like this,
and the media is ready to fill that need even on the dodgiest of premises.

Still, I think some animals are more cultural than you imagine, and even quite small-brained animals pass skills and knowledge on to their young and their fellows. I've had an abiding interest in the great tit, partly of course because of the provocative name, and partly because of the famous period in the 1920's when the tit population of Britain seemed to learn how to open the bottle tops of milk left on the doorstep at remarkable speed. Here's a Nature piece from a couple of years ago about cultural transmission among great tits, which have been observed over many generations now: — mcdoodle

Yeah, I read about this a while back. What interested me more though was recent news that a tribe of chimpanzees were observed (and filmed) carrying out what appeared to be ritualistic behaviours that could shed light on the early development of religion.

Although to be honest I didn't really follow this up much, so again it might just be part of the ongoing anthropomorphic wild goose / ape / dolphin chase that we humans can't seem to get enough of.

Martian Visitor

The article just seemed a bit click-baitish to me.

They refer to the "newly-invented" hydrophone. It was invented more than 100 years ago.

Barry Etheridge

They refer to the "newly-invented" hydrophone. It was invented more than 100 years ago. — Martian Visitor

No they don't. It clearly says it's a new type of hydrophone.

JJJJS

On the contrary, giving PowerPoint presentations appears to be negatively correlated with intelligence. PowerPoint is the death of effective communication.

↪andrewk

Is there any evidence for this?

andrewk

↪JJJJS

I was going to reply citing books like Speeches that changed the world, but then I heard about an upcoming book release 'PowerPoint Presentations that Changed the World', edited by Melvyn Bragg, so I think I'll have to withdraw my insinuation until I've read that with the openest mind I can muster.

Moliere

I think it depends on where one wants to draw the line on language, really. We could draw it so strictly that only English or German is the truly sophisticated language, for instance, or loosely enough that dogs barking to us is itself an example of full-fledged language, "for all intents and purposes", or some such qualification to indicate that we're not just barmy.

But, then, I suppose I don't feel entranced by linguistic usage as some indicator of our humanity. At least no more than many of the other things we fart around with.

SophistiCat

There recently was a New York Times article Can Prairie Dogs Talk? - entirely one-sided - in which one Dr. Slobodchikoff claims that prairie dogs possess the most complex language next to ours.

jkop

In cases where the lives of two humans differ a lot in capacities, interests, and ways to interact with the world they have little to talk about. At some point they will no longer understand each other, and when their lives are so different that they no longer share a frame of reference it will no longer be possible to translate expressions from one to the other; they would be like two different kinds of animals.

VagabondSpectre

I thought this thread was going to be about Adams' thoughts on philosophers:

(BBC Radio 4: 29th March 1978) (*fair use: educational and analytical purposes)

Reveal

NARRATOR:
There are, of course, many problems connected with life of which some of the most popular are, “why are people born?”; “why do they die?”; and “why do they spend so much of the intervening time wearing digital watches?” Many millions of years ago, a race of hyper-intelligent, pan-dimensional beings got so fed up with the constant bickering about the meaning of life, which used to interrupt their favorite pastime of Brockian Ultra Cricket - a curious game which involved suddenly hitting people for no readily apparent reason and then running away - that they decided to sit down and solve the problem once and for all. And to this end, they built themselves a stupendous supercomputer which was so amazingly intelligent, that even before its databanks had been connected up, it had started from first principles with “I think therefore I am” and had got as far as deducing the existence of rice pudding and income tax before anyone managed to turn it off. Could a mere computer solve the problem of Life, the Universe, and Everything? Fortunately for posterity there exists a tape recording of what transpired when the computer was given this particularly monumental task. Arthur Dent stops off in Slartibartfast’s study to hear it.

[Sound of playback starting]

ARCHIVE VOICE:
Archive material of Magrathea.

Scene 2. Int. Deep Thought Chamber

DEEP THOUGHT:
What is this great task for which I, Deep Thought, the second greatest computer in the universe…

LUNKWILL:
[Whispers] “Second greatest”?

DEEP THOUGHT:
…of time and space…

LUNKWILL:
“Second Greatest”!? Wait a minute.

DEEP THOUGHT:
…have been called into existence?

FOOK:
Well, your task oh, computer, is to calc-

LUNKWILL:
Er, no... Wait a minute. This isn’t right. Deep Thought…

DEEP THOUGHT:
Speak, and I will hear

LUNKWILL:
Are you not as we designed you to be, the greatest, most powerful computer in all creation?

DEEP THOUGHT:
I described myself as the second greatest …Deep Thought… and such…

LUNKWILL:
Yes yes but…

DEEP THOUGHT:
…I am.

LUNKWILL:
But, but, but - this is preposterous! Are you not a greater computer than The Milliard Gargantu-Brain at Maximegalon, which can count all the atoms in a star in a millisecond?

DEEP THOUGHT:
The Milliard Gargantu-Brain, a mere abacus. Mention it not.

FOOK:
And are you not a more fiendish disputant than The Great Hyperlobic Omnicognate Neutron-Wrangler? Which can destroy -

DEEP THOUGHT:
The Great Hyperlobic Omnicognate Neutron-Wrangler can talk all four legs off an Arcturan Mega-Donkey but only I can persuade it to go for a walk afterwards. Molest me not, with this, pocket calculator stuff!

LUNKWILL:
Then what’s the problem?

DEEP THOUGHT:
I speak of none, but the computer that is to come after me.

LUNKWILL:
Oh come on! I think this is getting needlessly messianic.

DEEP THOUGHT:
You know nothing of future time, and yet in my teaming circuitry I can navigate the infinite delta streams of future probability and see that there must one day come a computer whose merest operational parameters I am not worthy to calculate. But which it will be my destiny eventually to design

LUNKWILL:
Can we get on and ask the question?

DEEP THOUGHT:
Speak.

LUNKWILL:
O Deep Thought Computer, the task we have designed you to perform is this: We want you… to tell us… The Answer.

DEEP THOUGHT:
”The Answer”? The answer to what?

FOOK:
Life!

LUNKWILL:
The Universe.

FOOK:
Everything!

DEEP THOUGHT:
Tricky…

FOOK:
But can you do it?

DEEP THOUGHT:
Yes… I can do it.

FOOK:
You can!

LUNKWILL:
There, there, there is an answer? A simple answer?

DEEP THOUGHT:
Yes. Life, the Universe, and Everything… There is an answer. But I’ll have to think about it.

[The door to the room is broken down]

VROOMFONDEL:
We demand admission! We demand admission!

LUNKWILL:
Hey! What?

FOOK:
Hey, hey, hey!

MAJIKTHISE:
Come on, you can’t keep us out!

VROOMFONDEL:
We demand that you can’t keep us out.

LUNKWILL:
Who are you? What do you want? We’re busy!

MAJIKTHISE:
I am Majikthise.

VROOMFONDEL:
And I demand that I am Vroomfondel.

MAJIKTHISE:
It’s all right, you don’t need to demand that.

VROOMFONDEL:
Alright. I am Vroomfondel, and that is not a demand! That is a solid fact! What we demand is solid facts!

MAJIKTHISE:
No we don’t! That’s precisely what we don’t demand.

VROOMFONDEL:
Oh. We don’t demand solid fact! What we demand is a total absence of solid facts! I demand that I may or may not be Vroomfondel.

FOOK:
Who are you anyway?

MAJIKTHISE:
We are philosophers.

VROOMFONDEL:
But we may not be.

MAJIKTHISE:
Yes we are!

VROOMFONDEL:
sorry.

MAJIKTHISE:
We are quite definitely here as representatives of the Amalgamated Union of Philosophers, Sages, Luminaries, and other professional thinking persons.

VROOMFONDEL:
Um-hmm

MAJIKTHISE:
And we want this machine off, and we want it off now.

FOOK:
What is all this?

VROOMFONDEL:
We demand that you get rid of it.

FOOK:
What’s the problem?

MAJIKTHISE:
I’ll tell you what the problem is mate: demarcation. That’s the problem.

VROOMFONDEL:
We demand that demarcation may or may not be the problem.

MAJIKTHISE:
You just let the machines get on with the adding up and we’ll take care of the eternal verities, thank you very much.

VROOMFONDEL:
yeah.

MAJIKTHISE:
By law the quest for the ultimate truth is quite clearly the unalienable prerogative of your working thinkers

VROOMFONDEL:
That’s right.

MAJIKTHISE:
I mean what’s the use of us sitting up all night saying there may -

VROOMFONDEL:
Or may not be

MAJIKTHISE:
[Softly] …or may not be… [louder] a god, if this machine comes along the next morning and gives you ‘is telephone number?

VROOMFONDEL:
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!

DEEP THOUGHT:
Might I make an observation at this point?

MAJIKTHISE:
You keep out of this metal nose.

VROOMFONDEL:
We demand that that machine not be allowed to think about this problem!

DEEP THOUGHT:
If I might make an observation…

MAJIKTHISE:
We’ll go on strike!

VROOMFONDEL:
That’s right. You’ll have a national philosopher’s strike on your hands.

DEEP THOUGHT:
Who will that inconvenience?

MAJIKTHISE:
Never you mind who it’ll inconvenience you box of black legging binary bits! It’ll hurt, buster! It’ll hurt!

DEEP THOUGHT:
[Booming] If I might make an observation … All I wanted to say is that my circuits are now irrevocably committed to computing the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything.

VROOMFONDEL:
That’s a -

MAJIKTHISE:
Ahhh! With -

DEEP THOUGHT:
But, but the program will take me seven-and-a-half million years to run.

LUNKWILL:
Seven-and-a-half million years?

MAJIKTHISE:
Seven-and-a-half million years? What are you talking about?

DEEP THOUGHT:
Yes. I said I’d have to think about it didn’t I? And it occurs to me, that running a program like this is bound to cause sensational public interest.

VROOMFONDEL:
Oh yes.

MAJIKTHISE:
Oh you can say that again.

DEEP THOUGHT:
And so any philosophers who are put off the mark, are going to clean up in the prediction business.

MAJIKTHISE:
”Prediction business”?

DEEP THOUGHT:
Obviously. You just get on the pundit circuit. You all go on the chat shows and the colour supplements and violently disagree with each other about what answer I’m eventually going to produce. And if you get yourselves clever agents, you’ll be on the gravy train for life.

MAJIKTHISE:
Bloody ‘ell! That’s what I call thinking! Here Vroomfondel, why do we never think of things like that?

VROOMFONDEL:
Dunno. Think our minds must be too highly trained Majikthise.

[Sound of playback ending]

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