• Wolff
    1
    Is the such a thing as free will? Do we really have full control over our own actions? Or do the current circumstances dictate what we choose to do?

    If object A starts moving, is it not already determined by the current circumstances if it will hit or miss object B? And if in turn object B will perhaps move toward and touch object C? The trajectory of any given object is determined by many factors: Where the objects are placed in relation to each other, what force drives the objects to move and in which direction, what shape the objects have, what is the environment in which the objects are placed, ... ?

    If a force moves object A in the exact right way it will hit object B. If not it will miss. But the exact right way is determined by the circumstances: If the objects are far away from each other, more force must be used. The force must move the object in the right direction. If the environment is at a certain angle, force and direction might have to be adjusted. Is the object shaped like a ball or a cube? How are the other objects shaped? Does there happen to be gust of wind as object A starts moving? And if so how strong is that wind blowing and from what direction?

    Many factors seem to be of influence on these objects and how they will react, which might make the outcome seem unpredictable. But only because we do not know all of the circumstances, like the strength and direction of the driving force or the wind. If only we would know all of the circumstances that are of influence, we would know the exact outcome of the objects. But we can never know all of these circumstances, or even which ones have an effect on the outcome.

    If we see this as a metaphor for us humans and how our own movements are influenced by the circumstances we are currently in, we might state that the outcome is already determined by those circumstances.

    A lot of our circumstances are of a biological and psychological nature: The way our brain works on a biological level, how past experiences influence us, how the biological workings of our brain determine in which way these past experiences influence us (a brain that is formed one way might experience an event as strengthening and character building, while a brain that is formed in another way might find this same experience traumatic and crippling), how experiences in turn influence the biological workings of our brain, …

    Environmental circumstances also have a psychological dimension: Are we currently in our own home where we feel safe and can be ourselves, or are we in a governmental building in which we are expected to follow a certain social code? Or maybe we don’t feel safe at home anymore because there was a home jacking recently or we tend to act rebellious in a setting where there is an explicit authority present. How the place we are in was designed or decorated can influence if we feel comfortable or uneasy being present in it.

    Our actions are also influenced by things like if you feel well fed and rested or if you are currently in good physical health. If you are you might feel more relaxed and at ease, but if you are not you might feel uneasy or even agitated. You might just have had a relaxing time with friends, or you might have encountered someone you’ve had trouble with earlier this day.

    All of these circumstances are also influencing each other, and it is the summation of all of these influences that determine the action that we will make. You might be a person that usually plays it safe and doesn’t take a lot of risks, but because all of the circumstances are in a certain way right now you decide to finally enter for that study course you’ve been putting off for years now. If the circumstances where different, like if you where not in the same financial situation or you didn’t have certain past experiences that tell you it’s important to try and improve yourself, you might have been putting it off for even longer. Or if you would have to decide on something else, that is less important to you than these studies, you would not take the same risk and play it safe like you normally do.

    With all these factors from the past and the present influencing us, and many more we are not even aware of, where does free will come into play? Of course in many situations we don’t instantly know which action we will take, but I believe that the force of all the factors we contemplate, and the force of all the factors we are not aware of that they are influencing us, already determine the outcome.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    I wouldn't say that free will has anything to do with "complete control."

    Influences are not the same thing as causal determinants.

    That choices may be limited doesn't imply that one can not make a choice.
  • Echarmion
    2.6k
    Is the such a thing as free will? Do we really have full control over our own actions? Or do the current circumstances dictate what we choose to do?Wolff

    As long as some circumstances that dictate are part of our brain activity, and therefore a representation of our selves, cause and effect does not preclude free will.

    All of these circumstances are also influencing each other, and it is the summation of all of these influences that determine the action that we will make. You might be a person that usually plays it safe and doesn’t take a lot of risks, but because all of the circumstances are in a certain way right now you decide to finally enter for that study course you’ve been putting off for years now. If the circumstances where different, like if you where not in the same financial situation or you didn’t have certain past experiences that tell you it’s important to try and improve yourself, you might have been putting it off for even longer. Or if you would have to decide on something else, that is less important to you than these studies, you would not take the same risk and play it safe like you normally do.Wolff

    But isn't that an example of a person making a decision based on who they are? If free will is not making decisions based on your internal process of reasoning, then what is it?

    With all these factors from the past and the present influencing us, and many more we are not even aware of, where does free will come into play?Wolff

    It comes into play when you weigh the circumstances and make a decision.
  • numberjohnny5
    179


    Re
    Influences are not the same thing as causal determinants.

    What's influence ontologically? Or, what's the difference between causal determinants and influence ontologically?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    What's influence ontologically? Or, what's the difference between causal determinants and influence ontologically?numberjohnny5

    Influence consists of a person experiencing something and either liking it enough that they consciously steer something they're doing in a different direction intentionally due to this, or alternately experiencing it enough or in particular circumstances where it has an "unconscious" impact that something related to it emerges in later actions. (These are events in someone's brain, in response to environmental phenomena.)

    Influence doesn't determine later states, because more than one consequent later state is possible. Intentional influences necessarily emerge as the result of choices that someone makes. "Subconscious" influences are not as cut and dried there, but the person in question can still choose to do something different than what the influences would prompt.

    Re consequent states differing, for example. Both Adrian Belew and KISS were influenced by the Beatles. Adrian Belew and KISS made music that was notably different from each other, however. The influence didn't determine what the consequent state would be like.

    Causal determiners, however, leave no options. There's only one consequent state possible given an identical antecedent state. In the context we're talking about in this thread, causal determinants would also be events in someone's brain. They'd not necessarily be events that are have mental properties. Influences do have a mental component, especially when we're talking about intentional emulation.
  • numberjohnny5
    179


    So would it make sense to say then that ontologically influence is an indeterminer, i.e indeterministic?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k


    Yes. It's not deterministic.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Interesting thing is that influence is determined by us but I'm not sure to what degree this self-determination of influence affects free will. Do you know of the receptor theory of biology? In this theory a cell has certain protein receptors on its surface and in its cytoplasm. Only molecules that fit these receptors have any effect on the cell. In a similar fashion I think the idea of external influence loses some of its potency vis-a-vis free will. We decide what influences us and so, in a way, there is no such thing as an external influence. However, we probably don't have as much control as we'd like in the nature of our selves - the receptors that we have. Or do we? Thinking rationally does help in separating the wheat (the good) from the chaff (the bad). There does seem to be some control. I wonder....
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