• akourios
    17
    If we communicate to influence others, then we are probably aiming to change their perception. If this is the goal of the conversation then we too should be open to the possibility of being influenced since doing otherwise would negate our intend to influence others in the first place. If the goal is to argue effectively and with purpose, we need to be comfortable with changing our beliefs/values, and trust that the conversation is aimed at something that’s of mutual benefit. This is important because thinking that the conversation favours only the other side then their facts would not be influential because they don’t improve our position. The possibility for change is also as important because it is the cause for all evolution, the relevant evolution being improvement in the way of thinking. Now, if you don’t believe in evolution then the only way for mutual understanding is convincing you that evolution is real, or you convincing me that it is not. Still, changing one’s beliefs/values is considered evolution. However, the level of understanding in the conversation would depend on the communicators’ ability to process information and that depends on their intelligence and common sense. I view intelligence as the amount of information that you know, how well you validate this information (truth from falsehood), how well you can link this information together, and how well you can recall it. This definition of intelligence may explain how arguments/ideas are limited to the amount of information that one possesses, how capable we are of using information (e.g. 1+1 equals 2 and not solely 1+1), and how the true result of the conversation can be influenced by our ability to recall all the relevant information in order for it be used in our interpretations. If a person does not have well developed forms of intelligence, then his understanding would be limited to his level of development.
    Assuming that perception is relative to the individual, to effectively engage in conversation we would need common sense. Common sense can be characterised as the ability to mentally unite the information conveyed by the five physical senses. Then, to be able to talk about the information gathered, we labelled and named the things (common language) that are associated with it. That is common sense. Now we can say that without common sense, conversation would be meaningless and incomprehensible. For example, a trans-man is not a man unless he presents the biology of a man. Suggesting the opposite would mean that I am not using the five physical senses or that I am refusing the international label/name, thus there is no common sense. Of course common sense can be associated with intelligence because again, "If a person does not have well developed forms of intelligence, then his understanding would be limited to his level of development" and his perception would vary. However, if we choose to neglect the roots of common sense (physical senses + common language) then we should provide improved mechanisms for making sense of the world or humanity will regress due to lesser cognition.
    Often, an atheist cannot convince a theist that his definition of God does not exist like the theist cannot convince the atheist that his God exists. The reason is that both sides expect to receive information that is related to their level of intelligence. However, if your aim in the communication is to really influence, then you can’t say things like “lack of knowledge leads to faith” or “if you don’t believe you will suffer” because this would destroy the conversation by corrupting mutual trust. Instead, we should communicate at a level that slightly exceeds the opposing side’s level of intelligence. For example, talk to babies like a baby and all they learn is baby talk. Talk to them like adults and they won’t understand a thing. The solution to this is finding the moderate where they mostly understand what you say but they are challenged at the same time. Then you would ask why would we want to challenge them? Because it opens them to the possibility of change and allows them to process information gradually.
    Therefore, intelligence from both sides is the key to effective communications and common sense is the medium.
  • Pattern-chaser
    1.8k
    Assuming that perception is relative to the individual, to effectively engage in conversation we would need common sense. Common sense can be characterised as the ability to mentally unite the information conveyed by the five physical senses. Then, to be able to talk about the information gathered, we labelled and named the things (common language) that are associated with it.akourios

    I'm not arguing with what you say here. But I observe that your view is somewhat, er, utilitarian? You seem to be offering a view of humans as something close to machines, who operate using logic and rationality exclusively. If I have misunderstood: fair enough. I got it wrong.

    The way humans communicate is very complicated, and (IMO) has to include our non-rational behaviour(s) if we are to reach any meaningful understanding. To effectively engage in conversation we need common sense, as you say. We also need to understand the context within which the conversation is taking place, and probably a hundred other things. Complicated though this is, we learnt as children to do this, and we do it unconsciously, like walking. If we want to gain a conscious understanding of our communications, we have a lot of work to do. And I think the first step is to look at human beings as part-rational, part-logical, part-emotional and maybe part-spiritual too. Because that's what we are, although not all of these things at the same time.
  • akourios
    17
    I agree. Maybe my view of humans is simpler than it should be but it is not clear to me yet.

    If you are referring to emotion as our non-rational behaviour then what is emotion really? I think it is a mechanism which developed in primal ages and utilises logic. For example, if people didn't fit in with others then they were unlikely to survive, so emotions acted as a feedback mechanism. Feeling down would make them realise that something is not right and needs to be changed in order to survive.

    But maybe there is something that I am missing.
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    Therefore, intelligence from both sides is the key to effective communications and common sense is the medium.akourios

    Richard Dawkins is especially vicious with theists. He uses his intelligence to torment less intelligent people IMO.

    On the other side, theists use their intelligence to convert people. Not as obnoxious IMO... still misguided.
  • fdrake
    6.7k
    Grice's maxims are useful.

    Quantity
    1 Make your contribution as informative as is required (for the current purposes of the exchange).
    2 Do not make your contribution more informative than is required.
    Quality: ‘Try to make your contribution one that is true’
    1 Do not say what you believe to be false.
    2 Do not say that for which you lack adequate evidence.
    Relevance: ‘Be relevant’
    Manner: ‘Be perspicuous’
    1 Avoid obscurity of expression.
    2 Avoid ambiguity.
    3 Be brief (avoid unnecessary prolixity).
    4 Be orderly.
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    1 Do not say what you believe to be false.fdrake

    Accepting devil's advocate which is sometimes required.

    2 Do not say that for which you lack adequate evidence.fdrake

    Room for speculative discussions is required, other than that, sound advise. Not everyone on the forum follows it though... some posts can be very verbose for example.
  • akourios
    17
    That is why intelligence from both sides is needed. If the conversation is not aimed at something of mutual benefit then it is manipulation.
  • Devans99
    2.7k
    Truth is of mutual benefit. IMO the truth lies somewhere between the two positions (I am deist). Understanding from both sides is required. Blinding people with science is not helpful for getting at the truth.
  • fdrake
    6.7k
    Merged duplicate threads.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    If this is the goal of the conversation then we too should be open to the possibility of being influenced since doing otherwise would negate our intend to influence others in the first place.akourios

    So I like to go into referee mode as soon as I see a foul, and this seems to be one. How are you figuring the above?
  • I like sushi
    4.9k
    Grice is certainly a good starting point!

    Another is Orwell’s essay “Politics and the English Language.”

    Over all effective communication requires openness. Some people remain fixated on certain items and others dip their fingers into many pies. No matter what we do or say we’ll often be taken for being narrow minded or lacking focus depending on the other persons relative positions at any given time.

    Trying to influence others should be the last thing in mind when communicating ideas/thoughts. It is only a useful method of communication if exploring from a debate based exchange - and more fruitful if one is arguing for the side they disagree with. This is because it give a “steel-man” position to combat once the stance of the debaters is expressed in truth.

    If you cannot hold a single valid point of opposition against your own position then you’ve almost certainly veered off-track somewhere and should beg others for assistance in tearing at least a fragment of your position to pieces.

    Fortitude and resolve are the key attributes needed to make any kind of possible progress. These are attributes we all fall short of one way or another and often due to duping ourselves.

    A fav. quote of mine is from Feynman. To paraphrase: “One most be careful not to be fooled, as the easiest person to fool is ourselves!”

    Conviction without doubt is useless AND dangerous.
  • akourios
    17
    How do we expect other people to be open to the possibility that there is something which they don't know/understand if we ourselves aren't? For example, imagine two people with opposite opinions which they are not willing to change. Then there is no communication since they cannot be influenced. What is left is inaction or in extreme cases violence.

    But lets say I am talking about something that I am certain I am right. For example, killing is bad. Why is it bad? because of moral principles.hen questions like what are moral principles and why have them arise. I believe if someone questions your moral principles then you should expect an explanation for why to reject them which I believe is the same as providing alternative mechanisms for common sense.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    How do we expect other people to be open to the possibility that there is something which they don't know/understand if we ourselves aren't?akourios

    We realize that not everyone is the same (especially not in every situation)?
  • Pattern-chaser
    1.8k
    If you are referring to emotion as our non-rational behaviour then what is emotion really?akourios

    I meant to refer to more than just emotion, but it plays a central role in what I am saying, so fair enough. :up: As to your question: "what is emotion really?", I think that would take a topic of its own just to set the ground-rules of the discussion! :smile:
  • akourios
    17
    So there are people that think that they know everything without question. Then how can we influence if everyone sticks to what he believes to be true because he/she is different? You don't. Unless you understand that being different comes with different beliefs and values and then you question why there are different beliefs and values. How would science progress if everything was taken for a fact and not being tested for its validity? Isn't being open to the chance that you don't know everything better for our development?
  • akourios
    17
    You are absolutely right my friend. It seems that my post was much simpler than it should have been. I will try and figure things out!
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    Then how can we influence if everyone sticks to what he believes to be true because he/she is different?akourios

    One way that people are different from each other is that not everyone sticks to what they believe no matter what. Also, people who do stick to what they believe no matter what do not all do that on every topic. And there are plenty of topics where various people are not sure what they believe, whether they're talking to someone with an effectively immutable belief on that topic or not.
  • akourios
    17
    So is your point that the cause of close-mindedness is being different? Because 2 of your statements in your last reply suggest the opposite.
  • akourios
    17
    I can't really understand what you are saying. The things you said in your first reply prove wrong the things that you said in your second reply
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k


    You'd have to be more specific re what you're not understanding, what you're reading to be inconsistent.
  • akourios
    17
    "How do we expect other people to be open to the possibility that there is something which they don't know/understand if we ourselves aren't?"
    — akourios

    Terrapin Station: We realize that not everyone is the same (especially not in every situation)?


    So does this mean that the cause of close-mindedness is being different?

    Then how can we influence if everyone sticks to what he believes to be true because he/she is different?
    — akourios

    Terrapin Station: One way that people are different from each other is that not everyone sticks to what they believe no matter what. Also, people who do stick to what they believe no matter what do not all do that on every topic. And there are plenty of topics where various people are not sure what they believe, whether they're talking to someone with an effectively immutable belief on that topic or not.

    In your 2nd reply, your first statement says that being different sometimes results in being open-minded. Your second statement is irrelevant since we are talking about being open-minded to everything. Your third statement says people are not sure what they believe and this means that they question their beliefs so they are open-minded.

    So what is your point?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k


    Maybe the phrase "not everyone" is confusing?

    "Not everyone" negates "all."

    Or, in other words, rather than it being true that "F is the case for all x," it's saying that For some x, F, but for some x, not-F.

    So, for example:

    Some people stick to what they believe no matter what.
    Some people do not stick to what they believe no matter what.
    Some people stick to what they believe in some situations, but not in other situations.
    Some people, in some situations, aren't sure what they believe.

    And so on. People are different than each other in all sorts of ways.

    The point? That it's not necessary to be open to revision that P oneself in order to intend to persuade someone that P, where either we expect the person to be open to revision re their belief that not-P, or their lack of belief either way.

    The fact that the first person isn't open to revision in their belief that P doesn't mean that the other person won't be open to revision in their belief that not-P. It just depends on the particular people involved. Their dispositions, etc.
  • akourios
    17
    Then how am I able to understand what you are saying if I wasn't able to change my mind? I am not arguing about how people are sometimes close-minded. I am saying that it would be better to be open-minded no matter your situation. so that you can understand others and share their knowledge. Of course, there are things that may determine whether you are close-minded or not and these things prevent us from evolving. I believe if we can identify these things then it will be beneficial for all of us.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    What I was disagreeing with was the claim that "we too should be open to the possibility of being influenced since doing otherwise would negate our intend to influence others in the first place."

    I was disagreeing with that solely on logical grounds. Because it's possible to intend to influence others while not being open to the possibility of being influenced.

    Whether I'd prefer people to be open to the possibility of being influenced is a different issue.

    It's (logically) possible--and it often happens--that people intend to influence others while not being open to the possibility of being influenced. So it's not true that you can't intend to influence others if you're not open to the possibility of being influenced.
  • akourios
    17
    You are right. What I should have said instead is if we intend to influence then we too should be open to the possibility of being influenced if our goal is true enlightenment. Thanks!
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