Correspondence isn't.
— creativesoul
How do you believe the relation obtains outside of a judgment? — Terrapin Station
The cat is on the mat. If that’s an objective fact, then the proposition is true — AJJ
The way it obtains is via a judgment about whether the meaning "matches" the fact. — Terrapin Station
Then how can a proposition still be true if I judge it to be false? — AJJ
So the only way it can be true when you judge it to be false is that it's true to someone else (or to you at a later time). Otherwise, it's not true when you judge it to be false. — Terrapin Station
If it’s an objective fact the cat is on the mat, then that proposition matches that fact. — AJJ
This is where we got to last time. I gave an explanation and you went quiet.
Descriptions obtain via a set of words with particular meanings representing a person, object or event by way of concept and mental imagery. I describe a cat on a mat. I’m referring to a particular cat and mat, and the concept of being on something. All it takes for my proposition to be true is for that cat to be on that mat. — AJJ
So meanings, concepts, mental imagery can somehow exist or amount to something outside of a person's mind on your view? — Terrapin Station
(Otherwise, how are such things matching something else independent of thinking about it and making a judgment about whether they match? (and if they're only mental, how is someone (or something?) seeing your mental content to check if it matches (and if something, how is it doing this?)) — Terrapin Station
f a proposition conforms to it then it’s true regardless. — AJJ
This is the issue. If a proposition conforms to independent reality how? Is it structurally similar? — Terrapin Station
It describes it, — AJJ
What does a description amount to outside of thinking about the description? — Terrapin Station
That is, just how does the correspondence relation obtain? The way it obtains is via a judgment about whether the meaning "matches" the fact. — Terrapin Station
A proposition/description is a thing within a person’s mind. However, it will only correspond with an independent reality if that reality is as the proposition describes. — AJJ
What words do you want him to use? — DingoJones
If the proposition/description amounts to nothing outside of thinking about it, then how does it mind-independently correspond with anything? Mind-independently, it's nothing. Nothing can't correspond with anything, can it? — Terrapin Station
The words that indicate that he understands that correspondence can't occur outside of making a judgment about it. ;-) — Terrapin Station
He's not understanding that correspondence needs to occur or obtain somehow, and I'm focusing on just how it occurs or obtains. He's not addressing that. He just keeps taking for granted that it works without wanting to analyze how it works. — Terrapin Station
Because its correspondence depends on something independent of the mind... — AJJ
I am understanding that, — AJJ
Buddy, I don’t think you have any idea what I’ve been saying, or in fact what you’ve been saying. I’m happy to leave this alone now. — AJJ
Let's try this to check if you understand the issue I'm getting at: paraphrase the dilemma in a way that I'd agree that it's what I'm saying. — Terrapin Station
Correspondence obtains via a judgement made that a meaning matches a fact; judgements are mind-dependent, so therefore correspondence/truth is mind dependent.
I’ve had a look back over the posts on this page and that seems to be your argument. But the first part is just something you assert. You’ve ignored or bizarrely misunderstood every response I’ve made to that idea. — AJJ
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