From very early in life we become aware that other people exist. All these other people that we observe and interact with are pretty much self-directed because "they have minds of their own".

Authors create characters that seem to have minds of their own, though they are strictly products of the authors' imagination. When we dream, we author (verb) characters that seem to have minds of their own.

Our dreams should have characters that act as if they had minds of their own even though they do not, since that is the kind of world we live in. Could we have a dream where we were aware (in the dream) that all the characters were merely projections of our dreaming mind, and themselves knew it?

We don't dream that way (as far as I know) because "other people who have minds of their own" is such a basic, never-violated rule of reality. We don't observe, meet, or interact with our own imagined characters in the real world.

I wonder what this can imply about the nature of consciousness or psychology? — Wallows

If you pay attention carefully over time to yourself in waking states, you will notice that it is not so different. Different subpersonalities take over. They have different beliefs and points of view. Some optimistic, some not, some think taking action is best, others having a more wait and see attitude. Try to break a habit that is well ingrained and you will find at least a hint of one of the other drivers of your 'car'. In dreams these parts get bodies, the ego can face off with them, be friends, be enemies, whatever. Dreams personify and objectify parts of use including undigested experiences. What you learned in class might be a house or an uncle in a dream. (I am not saying that this is all dreams are or can be, just that this is one of the things that can happen in dreams) In waking we can notice the effects of these other subpersonalities, but we don't get to meet them, see their facial expressions, get chased through a swamp by one of them.

We don't dream that way (as far as I know) because "other people who have minds of their own" is such a basic, never-violated rule of reality. We don't observe, meet, or interact with our own imagined characters in the real world. — Bitter Crank

It would be wild if you dreamed of someone arguing with you that solipsism is true and they were the only mind in the world.

On a related note, I was reminded of the author Robert Louis Stevenson, who used his dream people as a source of stories. He called them the "little people who manage man's internal theater". Apparently women have a different dream management.

Dreams occur in a state of awareness with little to no sensorimotor constraints and diminished frontal cortex activation. Neuro-imaging data which contrasts lucid dreamers with non-lucid dreamers while sleeping is suggestive of higher frontal cortex activation in lucid dreamers. Lucid dreamers feel agency in dreams, non-lucid dreamers do not.

While waking, however, frontal lobe damage has to be really severe to totally remove the person's agency.

Together what this suggests is that the lack of agency in dreams is attributable precisely to the interaction I noted; a state of awareness which has no sensorimotor constraints and diminished frontal cortex activation.

Something to take away here is that the neural architecture which supports our sense of self and cognitive agency is actually doing a lot of stuff, and volitional control is but one of many distinct (but overlapping and correlated) functions it exhibits.

apparently "man/men" is the Anglo-Saxon generic term for both men and women. So have a crack at dream interpretation, why don't you.

I am a non-lucid dreamer. The characters and objects in my dreams are self-directed. Last night I was meeting with clients (of some sort). Their files were not just falling apart, the items in their files were moving on their own, falling off the table, falling into crevasses, getting lost in other paper debris. Escaping. The clients in the dream were a mixed lot (about 6 were sitting at the table) and a couple stood out for having very aggressive personalities -- a bit threatening.

The business of the file contents moving around, getting disorganized or worse, lost, is a recurrent dream theme which resembles some real life experiences trying to keep paper work organized. The paper usually wins.

Tell me what this means: the meeting with clients was at a Catholic college; we were in the basement of Marian Hall, in a room off very complicated hallways and stairways. I sent the clients to another building (like a student union) to give me time to straighten things out. They returned after a while but I was still sorting things out.

The geographical setting where this dream was located has appeared in other vivid dreams.

I was also biking from one nondescript location to another in the dream, and the road and scenery of this dream is also recurrent.

I was relieved to have the dream over when I woke up.

What do you think the stupid dream (above) means?

Well, just elaborating on the OP. Dream characters have come to symbolize ancient spirits, shamans, archetypes, and all that sort of stuff. I think those labels are quite overblown, despite these dream characters having some sort of agency over themselves very often. It's paradoxical to think that we have different "people" living in our heads; but, seemingly this is a bona fide sort of evidence for the existence of some sub-conscious volitional aspect of the mind.

Our dreams should have characters that act as if they had minds of their own even though they do not, since that is the kind of world we live in. Could we have a dream where we were aware (in the dream) that all the characters were merely projections of our dreaming mind, and themselves knew it? — Bitter Crank

It's just illogical that we treat these dream entities as having a mind of their own in my opinion; but, in principle, I suppose you can have a dream where one knows the other characters are a figment of one's imagination.

Yes, I think actors who play roles, have a higher level of awareness or ability to integrate these different personalities than other people. Heath Ledger is said to have died from allowing the Joker to take hold of his identity. What do you think?

Dreams occur in a state of awareness with little to no sensorimotor constraints and diminished frontal cortex activation. Neuro-imaging data which contrasts lucid dreamers with non-lucid dreamers while sleeping is suggestive of higher frontal cortex activation in lucid dreamers. Lucid dreamers feel agency in dreams, non-lucid dreamers do not. — fdrake

I suppose it's interesting in that agency unifies one's personality into a unitary entity instead of the dream characters running amok in dreams. What do you think about the relationship between agency and identity?

Something to take away here is that the neural architecture which supports our sense of self and cognitive agency is actually doing a lot of stuff, and volitional control is but one of many distinct (but overlapping and correlated) functions it exhibits. — fdrake

What would you say are the implications of this line of reasoning?

What do you think the stupid dream (above) means? — Bitter Crank

No idea, that's what's so fascinating about dreams, is that they are manifestations of the psyche at work... Usually, one can surmise some form of narrative or context about the dream that allows one to endow it with meaning.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/dream-catcher/201608/non-self-characters-in-lucid-dreams

A very long time ago, I had a dream, where this issue was raised.

It was a very bittersweet dream for me. I say this because I confronted a dream character with my awareness that they weren't real. To which this dream character replied that they were my friend.

I was sad that they were both real and not real at the same time...

I don't "believe" in dream interpretation -- like using a chart which lists what images "mean". Like "a thing is a phallic symbol if it's longer than it's wide"***. That's just malarky. A better method of interpretation is to teach the dreamer to "free associate" to the images. In my dream, for instance, what images, or ideas, or feelings do the 'files" or "Marian Hall" bring to mind. "Files" bring to mind feelings of frustration and unease. "Marian Hall" brings to mind a feeling of security, belonging. (I'm not, never was, Catholic.).

"Marian" normally references the veneration of the Virgin Mary, not Mary herself. The "Marian Year" is a year devoted to Mary, not somebody named Marian. When I was teaching smoking cessation classes for St. Joseph's Hospital, the class room was in "Mary Hall". Perhaps that is where "Marian Hall" came from, but the idea doesn't ring any free-associational bells.

That some of the clients (both males who looked like clients I had worked with in the past) seemed threatening in some way might have some sexual loading. That association does ring a bell. There are certain types of men who I find sort of threatening, or challenging, and that's definitely about submerged sexual issues.

Dream interpretation can be helpful in a therapeutic setting, when people have issues they can only witness in dreams. It can lead to insight, but one has to work at it.

*** As the latter day hippyish folksy singer Melanie sang in her song, glory glory psychotherapy, as the id goes marching on. Her more famous hit ws about roller skates.

Well, I find dreams to be too emotionally charged and insightful to simply dismiss. They are "real" in regards to our inner world at play, don't you think?

Interesting dream.

It's just illogical that we treat these dream entities as having a mind of their own in my opinion. — Wallows

Of course, dream mages DO NOT and CAN NOT have minds of their own. Dream images are a blurry reflection of the mind that dreams them--blurry because crystalline logic isn't a game the unconscious (or non-conscious) mind plays. One of the ways in which dreams can be frightening, is the possibility that the bizarre content of our dreams is ACTUALLY the way the unconscious works, and WHY the deal was worked out that the unconscious mind would never fully reveal itself to the conscious mind -- which if it saw the unfiltered subconscious in action, would depart our skulls in shrieking horror.

They are "real" in regards to our inner world — Wallows

Yes, absolutely. Maybe a lot of our dreams are just run of the mill subconscious mumbling, but every now and then we have a dream in which the subconscious seems to be very articulate. Those are the really interesting dreams, to me anyway.

Certainly possible. Sean Penn has said sometimes he hates acting. My impression is it was being taken over by the character he hated. Gestalt therapy involves taking on the identity of parts of the dream, even objects in the dream. Very powerful.

I don't "believe" in dream interpretation -- like using a chart which lists what images "mean". Like "a thing is a phallic symbol if it's longer than it's wide"***. That's just malarky. A better method of interpretation is to teach the dreamer to "free associate" to the images. In my dream, for instance, what images, or ideas, or feelings do the 'files" or "Marian Hall" bring to mind. "Files" bring to mind feelings of frustration and unease. "Marian Hall" brings to mind a feeling of security, belonging. (I'm not, never was, Catholic.). — Bitter Crank

FWIW then, recurrent dreams are often related to very earliest experiences. Marion Hall as womb with complicated access, therefore, disorganising files as contractions, sending clients oft another room as birth, them coming back as awaking to the world.

If that doesn't feel right, it probably isn't, but unpleasant dreams that repeat are likely to be about early trauma, and birth is an early trauma.

How is it possible for these dream characters that populate a dream world to have, seemingly, an intent of their own? Why would they? I mean, given that a dream world is practically tantamount to living in a solipsistic world, you would assume that you are the only person with a 'mind' within a dream. Yet, even in dreams where I am aware that I am dreaming (lucid dreams), I still find it hard to shake off the preprogrammed belief that the friend I meet, the father or mother I talk with, or the siblings I interact with in a dream have a mind of their own... — Wallows

In my lucid dreaming experiences, a dream character tends to lose their autonomy as soon as I demand them to act autonomously. For example, if I ask them a question in the hope of receiving a novel and autonomous answer they turn into a puppet and say nothing. This effect is presumably related to artist's block.

Dreams are based on waking experiences and thoughts. So it would be odd if you didn't parse others as being independent of you in dreams.

This is obvious even simply in daydreaming or imagining. Say, for example, that you want to ask your boss for a raise. You try to imagine how that might go. When you do that, you're not thinking of your boss as simply being your own mind. You're trying to imagine how they might react based on your past experience with them.

Fiction authors make a profession out of this. Characters are their own imagination, but they have to imagine them as independent people. And you know you're doing a good job of that when it feels like the "characters are taking over and writing themselves."

Does anyone care to analyze a recurrent dream I've been having for the past 10 years?

Ever since I moved out of Europe, when I turned 18, I've been having one too many dreams of still living in Poland. It's constantly about my education and closest friends there in 12'th grade throughout high school... It's getting tiresome dreaming so much about another country where I'm imagining myself as happy or whatnot. I'd say on average I dream about living back there 3-4 times a week, and all these dreams are happy ones. It's getting tiresome trying to push aside the apparent message of these dreams, being that I want to move back there.

But, my nagging suspicion is that if I were to move back there, then I'd just as well dream about being in California again.

What's the deal here? Should I listen to my dreams and move back there?

I think you should learn how to lucid dream - it sounds great - never managed it myself.

Maybe other people, aliens, gods can participate in our dreams - stray EMR maybe. You could ask them if you should move back to Poland. I have various questions about time, God, infinity I would like answered - I would grill all comers until I get answers. Has anyone tried that BTW?

Could it be that there are different classes of characters in our dreams? Some might be wooden, bit part actors added by our subconscious, others are actually real, separate entities?

I think you should learn how to lucid dream - it sounds great - never managed it myself. — Devans99

I bought this a while back, still waiting for it to get delivered:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/arenar/iband-eeg-headband-that-helps-you-sleep-and-dream

Interesting. Please post if it works.

Even if we cannot actually speak to different entities in our dreams, maybe it allows access to the subconscious mind in a way that the waking conscious does not. Like a computer, there seems to be various background activities going on in the mind and nervous system. Maybe it might be possible to engage with these processes. I drink quite a bit, so maybe I'd not like to talk with my liver, it might be a mite angry with me.

Sure. Though, if you're interested in lucid dreaming, there's a bunch of websites that have information about different techniques and methods to induce a lucid dreaming state.

I suspect that in most dreaming states, that the mind has more resources available to analyze or be able to determine differing thoughts and stuff.

One interesting question is that if dream entities do indeed have an intent of their own, then what is their goal or 'desire' to get out of interactions with them? What do you think?

One interesting question is that if dream entities do indeed have an intent of their own, then what is their goal or 'desire' to get out of interactions with them? What do you think? — Wallows

Another interesting question is what they get up to while you're awake and unconscious of them.

Another interesting question is what they get up to while you're awake and unconscious of them. — unenlightened

The unconscious doesn't get much love, despite all the work it does for 'us'. I think, consciousness is a very narrow and limited aspect of being... Who doesn't enjoy their dreams? I know I do.

Following up on what you quoted, it seems to me that the notion of one's identity is formed and shaped through both conscious and unconscious methods. The seeming 'intent' or 'desire' of these dream entities, which play a game of masquerade by utilizing different faces/characters/people picked up from conscious experience shows that having an identity is not a unitary or holistic facet of experience, despite the best efforts of the conscious mind.

What are your thoughts about the notion of identity correlated with conscious or unconscious experience?

I suspect that in most dreaming states, that the mind has more resources available to analyze or be able to determine differing thoughts and stuff. — Wallows

The few dreams I remember are sometimes quite stunningly creative in content, if not always particularly logical. More creative than my waking mind. So it seems correct that more/different parts of the brain maybe involved. To be able to direct the dream and harness that creativity would be wonderful.

One interesting question is that if dream entities do indeed have an intent of their own, then what is their goal or 'desire' to get out of interactions with them? What do you think? — Wallows

I wonder if the subconscious is a different person in some sense. One body, two minds. You meet the other 'you' directly only in your dreams. I think some of my dreams I can interpret as desires (that I presumably share with my subconscious).