• Three-Buddy Problem
    30
    Let's look at the most simple scenario possible: John stole your stuff. Had you lived in 10,000 BC you probably would've set out to strike him back; so civilization, which emerged later, had decided that stealing causes destructive behaviors and is therefore immoral. So since now that you live in 2019, if John stole your stuff you can have him arrested because everyone agrees that stealing is immoral.

    But if we put the focus on John, however, we find that he probably wasn't doing this out of free choice, and that he were strongly molded by society. Say, he grew up in a nasty slum and always had to survive by stealing, so he, facing whatever situation, probably thought it was necessary for him to steal your stuff.

    From your perspective, to be a thief is to be destructive and therefore immoral, even though society made him so in the first place. But from the John's perspective, it's society that has been destructive by having made who he is, and that his behavior is society taking its well-deserved toll, even though stealing is destructive.

    So as we can see, whenever we call something moral or immoral, the underlying assumption is always ''This is (im)moral because blah blah blah, EVEN THOUGH blah blah blah''.

    So to recap:

    You: John shouldn't have had been a thief because it's destructive to society, even though that's exactly what society have molded him into.

    John: I have no reason to NOT be a thief because that's what society molded me into, even though you lost your stuff as a result.

    And it's even impossible to remove the ''even though'' because, duh, that'd make morality obsolete. But we can't deny the fact that you can't fundamentally substantiate these ''even-thoughs'' using any empirical falsifiable truth.

    My solution to this conundrum is, please don't laugh, to ''not give a fuck''. That is, you don't give a fuck that John stole your stuff--in fact, you don't give fuck about ANYTHING that would be considered transgressions towards you.

    Sure, this may sound ludicrous and counterintuitive, but think about this:

    The less fucks you give about your property, the less John would want to STEAL your property.

    Or similarly, in other situations:

    The less fucks you give about your reputation, the less haters would find it valuable to tamper it.

    The less fucks you give about your politically enthusiastic colleague Karen, the less she'd find it worthwhile to try to convert you to her political worldview.

    The difficult part is that this solution can only work if EVERYONE in a given society sticks to it. But once everyone does, society as we know it would be so much better that the conventional concept of morality becomes obsolete.

    If everyone stops giving a fuck about their property, there'd be no thieves--I mean, no nasty slums and street rats like John in the first place.

    This may seem as if I'm just peddling communism, but no, hear me: this applies to ANY other situation as well, and solves the problems with maximal efficiency.

    If everyone stops giving a fuck about their own reputations, then nobody would get haters since it's now futile to hate someone.

    If everyone stops giving a fuck about converting people to their own religions, then their religions wouldn't get attacked and criticized in the first place.

    If everyone stops giving a fuck about having enemies, then nobody would be anybody's enemy.

    The list goes on and on. But one thing's for sure: the world will be a better place if we all don't give a fuck.
  • Heracloitus
    500
    To take it to an extreme: would you be capable of "not giving a fuck" if someone raped and murdered your children? I think not.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    I don't agree with a number of things here.

    But I'd say that the most important one is that morality isn't ultimately socially determined, it's individually determined, hinging on the behavior that people do give a fuck about, and can't help but give a fuck about. Social norms develop out of that, not the other way around.

    So, for example, Jane gives a fuck about Joe wanting to have sex with her, where Joe will do so against Jane's consent and resistance if he has to.

    Or Joe gives a fuck about having Bob around, so that he can't help but be upset when David murders Bob just because Bob "stole his parking spot at the grocery store" according to David.

    People care about stealing, when they do, for the same reason--you're taking stuff of theirs that they care about and can't help but care about. It's stuff they want, maybe that they'd say they need--like the money in their bank account that they need to use to buy food or medicine to stay alive, etc.

    I'm sure there are things I could do to you, or people around you, that you'd give a fuck about. Like if I were to torture you in particular ways. It would simply be a natural, instinctual reaction that you'd have.
  • Patulia
    26
    the world will be a better place if we all don't give a fuck.Three-Buddy Problem

    We'll that's for sure! I am personally trying to pursue this way of life and it's actually working out pretty well.

    However, wouldn't you be happier if John didn't steal your stuff because you "didn't give a fuck" but because he respected you as a person and as the owner of the things he initially wanted to steal? I don't know, maybe my world view is excessively romantic and I believe in human morality too much. Also, do you really think everyone is capable of not giving a fuck?
  • Three-Buddy Problem
    30


    Well, no, because I'm not asking for John's respect in the first place, and I don't feel proud of owning anything because I know I'd lose them anyway in the future.

    We put a LOT of resources into teaching kids how to care about things that they don't need to care about...perhaps divert all those resources into training them how not to give a fuck, and my solution would finally work.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    You'd have to physically change how human brains work--or at least just give everyone a lobotomy, to get them to not care about any violence done to them (and to not care about any other people, either).
  • Three-Buddy Problem
    30


    I gotta admit, I wouldn't. But again, my solution only works in everyone stops giving a fuck together at once.

    According to my understanding of psychology, some fundamental reasons why rapists rape are:

    1) they haven't got what they want
    2) forbidden things are TEMPTING because if you do them you'd be ''triumphing over the rules of society

    And here's how my solution would work. You don't get women if you want them too much because you'd come across as being desperate and needy. And once we stop forbidding anything in the first place, then those wannabe rule-breakers would not be tempted.
  • Patulia
    26

    OK, let's say you don't care about John's respect. But maybe John doesn't care about you not giving a fuck and he is stealing your stuff because he needs them or because his family needs them. The "not giving a fuck" strategy works when those who are causing you harm do it because they want to upset you (for example, bullies). But if John doesn't care about you being upset or no, would "not giving a fuck" stop him from stealing things from you?
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    According to my understanding of psychology, some fundamental reasons why rapists rape are:Three-Buddy Problem

    Another reason is "I want to have sex with this person," and in your world, now there are no repercussions for having sex with them even if they're not interested in having sex with me.

    "You don't get women if you want them too much" -- in your world, you can just take them, and no one gives a fuck.
  • Three-Buddy Problem
    30


    Good thing is that we can agree to disagree on this. My proposition is that to not give a fuck is a solution to problems that morality can't solve, and your proposition is that morality is a solution to our inherent incapability of not giving a fuck.

    My model still works, though. Jane giving a fuck about John's sexual desires towards her would make John want her even more, yet get equally more frustrated in the process. So if she instead gives no fuck, then John actually would have no reason to make any transgressions as well.

    And the reason why David would shoot anyone for such a trivial cause is that he had a bad childhood; and according to what I've seen, the reason why a childhood could be bad is because the adults around you give a negative fuck about you giving a positive fuck.
  • Three-Buddy Problem
    30


    I understand. However, the tragedy of the commons happens when people living in a communistic society still give a fuck.

    In my model, people would not give a fuck about one person acting on his own will, and that person would also not give a fuck about getting more stuff from other people. And in the end, there'd only be rational discussions on whether the actions of said person are substantiated.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    But this is circular: if people acted like in my model, my model would work. Sure, but...
  • Three-Buddy Problem
    30


    You're right; though this is also exactly why my model can only work if everyone in the world stops giving a fuck at the same time together. Highly impractical, but hey, who knows.
  • Three-Buddy Problem
    30


    It's not circular if I've got a plan in mind for making everyone not giving a fuck.

    Look, we waste a lot of resources teaching kids they don't need to know. How about divert all those resources into teaching them how not to give a fuck?

    But before that we can try to develop a whole ethical theory based on the principle of not giving a fuck, so that it can have the potential to be systematically implemented.
  • Patulia
    26

    In the small scale the "not giving a fuck" model works, though. It makes those who apply it happier and less stressed (I speak from experience).
  • Three-Buddy Problem
    30


    Exactly, works for me too, heck it had been an epiphany for me after spending my teenage years giving a fuck about how people around me should behave lol
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    My proposition is that to not give a fuck is a solution to problems that morality can't solve, and your proposition is that morality is a solution to our inherent incapability of not giving a fuck.Three-Buddy Problem

    ?? Morality isn't a solution to anything. It's a reaction that people naturally have, so that they can't help but have that reaction. You're hoping to "weed out" a natural reaction somehow. It's no different than saying that you want to eliminate the natural reaction that someone has when they place their hand on a hot stove. You can't just teach kids to not experience pain, to not recoil when they feel their hand burning. You'd have to change the way persons' brains work to avoid that reaction.

    For some odd reason you're seeing moral transgressions solely as perpetrators wanting to rebel against things that people care about--as if moral transgressors are a bunch of high school goths or something. That's not what the majority of moral transgressions are. Most grow out of conflicting desires, in an atmosphere of a relative lack of empathy (so ironically, perps relatively don't give a fuck what victims care/don't care about), and/or they grow out of emotional reactions that perps have but don't control very well--such as murdering someone, or at least taking a tire iron to their car or whatever, because they "stole your parking space at the grocery store."
  • Three-Buddy Problem
    30


    Actually, you wouldn't give a fuck about forcing anyone to do anything in the first place. Unless you're a sociopath, of course, but I believe a society adopting my model would have specific laws and procedures regarding sociopaths. In this case, if John can be identified as a sociopath, he can be simply taken care of.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    a society adopting my model would have specific laws and procedures regarding sociopathsThree-Buddy Problem

    Then the society gives a fuck after all. Not giving a fuck means that anyone can do anything to anyone they like, and no one gives a fuck about it.
  • Three-Buddy Problem
    30


    My model is not remotely as extreme as teaching kids not to feel pain. Instead, my model can work even though everyone still feels emotional pain (and frankly isn't relevant to it). Instead everyone simply makes NO claims on how each other should behave.

    And my model can also eliminate the problems caused by conflicting desires and empathy-poor communities. You simply don't give a fuck about ousting those with conflicting desire and you'd discuss with them instead. And people can escape from empathy-poor communities because empathy-rich ones would definitely be welcome, and there'd also be no taboo on whom you should live with.
  • Three-Buddy Problem
    30


    This can be considered necessary evil to maintain the not-giving-a-fuck-ness of said society. No society can exist without necessary evil.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    My model is not remotely as extreme as teaching kids not to feel pain.Three-Buddy Problem

    Yes it is, because all that morality is is a pain-like reaction to interpersonal behavior. Teaching someone to not give a fuck when they're raped, or when their spouse is murdered, is no less extreme than supposing you could teach people to not give a fuck when they put their hand on a hot stove, or cut off their hand with a circular saw or whatever.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    You simply don't give a fuck about ousting thoseThree-Buddy Problem

    Ousting people is NOT not giving a fuck. That's precisely giving a fuck.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    At this point, if we were having this conversation in person, I'm confident you'd be trying to stop me from poking you with sharp objects, etc. (Which is what I'd be doing as you persist with the nonsense you're espousing.). If you agree that you're not going to simply teach someone to not give a fuck about putting their hand on a hot stove, you're going to give a fuck as I pull you over to the stove and put your hand on it.
  • Three-Buddy Problem
    30


    You're defining morality as a state of emotion, but I thought morality is a label that's applied to what we think each other ought to behave, so that everyone can be in a maximally good emotional state.

    And my model is exactly the thing to make it even better, with the very same premise in hand! The truth, you usually earn stuff when you're not thinking too much about it, and you lose stuff when you think too much about it. I'm just expanding this principle to the realm of morality as we know it.
  • Three-Buddy Problem
    30


    All your objections seem to be raw emotional responses to counterintuitive thinking.

    In my hypothetical society, I'd be surprised if you were to poke a sharp object at me either because you want to do so in the first place or that society hasn't identified you as a psychopath whom must be taken special care of.

    But in the end, I have the right to resist you without breaking my principles. My model is aiming to make the world a better place just like any other ethical model, and individuals breaching the model should be taken special care of (in this scenario, resisting you is the special care).
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    You're defining morality as a state of emotion, but I thought morality is a label that's applied to what we think each other ought to behave,Three-Buddy Problem

    It's a state of emotion about how other people are behaving. So yeah, that is how you think other people should behave, but the reason you think that in the first place is because of the emotional reaction to (the idea of) particular behaviors.

    Again, it is NOT a "solution" to anything. It's an unavoidable way that people feel, which would be easy to demonstrate in person as I poke you with sharp objects, as I pull you over to the stove, etc. It's not true that you'd not give a fuck re whatever I'd do to you.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    In my hypothetical society, I'd be surprised if you were to poke a sharp object at me either because you want to do so in the first place or that society hasn't identified you as a psychopath that has to be takens special care of.Three-Buddy Problem

    Did you miss the part that you're factually wrong in thinking that all moral transgressors are basically just high school goths?

    Let's slow this down so we're not just repeating stuff.
  • Three-Buddy Problem
    30


    This is dangerously close to an argumentum ad passiones.

    After all, the very foundation of society is to NOT be 100% loyal to our emotions! Before civilization, if someone hits you, the only response is to hit him back, and surprise, that's also what your intuitions tell you to do. But you don't need to hit him back in a civilized society because you'd know he'd get arrested.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    After all, the very foundation of society is to NOT be 100% loyal to our emotions! Before civilization, if someone hits you, the only response is to hit him back, and surprise, that's also what your intuitions tell you to do. But you don't need to hit him back in a civilized society because you'd know he'd get arrested.Three-Buddy Problem

    Both hitting someone back and arresting them are giving a fuck how other people are behaving.

    Not giving a fuck is when they hit you and there are zero repercussions.
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