It is open to read in my post (e.g. "Granted that some.. portrayals are unfair or misleading...") that here I'm not primarily concerned with the right or wrong of portrayals but the relation in the assumption that one could be diminished or objectified by them. In social constructionism, for instance, it is assumed (incorrectly) that our reality would be constructed by they ways we portray it.
You omit what is said in my post, and instead misuse one of it sentences in a related but different context, libel, which concerns the right and wrong of portrayals. The shift of context makes the sentence appear ironic or irrational, which seems to be your primary concern. But your argument isn't sound, just vengeful sophistry disguised as "logic". — jkop
Why do you rephrase what is open to read? I've said none of those things. Your argument is clearly unsound, and the above is an informal fallacy (loaded question). — jkop
So my question is: in what sense is the claim that libel is itself harmful different from the claim that some portrayals of women also constitute harm? — Nagase
Some of us aren't in favor of libel laws, by the way. — Terrapin Station
Libel is a legal term, recall, not a constitution of harm. Courts of law investigate whether a case of alleged libel is unlawful. You don't get to determine that libel would constitute harm. — jkop
I'd agree with that, but I don't agree that libel is sufficient for harm, either.
On the other hand, "harm" is ambiguous, so we'd need to define it better. — Terrapin Station
That's clear, but I'd be surprised if that's what you intended to say. It follows from that that the Ewells' libellous accusations of rape against Tom Robinson in 'To Kill a Mockingbird' were not harmful, despite the fact that they led to trauma and finally death for Tom.No cases of libel are harmful. (Was that clear enough that time?) — Terrapin Station
↪Bitter Crank I realize that digital characters, for all intensive purposes, cannot actually be said to suffer. But these characters are representations of an entire sex. The developers made a choice: should we make women wear normal, modest clothing, or should we make them wear absurdly impractical and sexually arousing clothing? — darthbarracuda
That's a good point.The TRUE objectification of women occurs when you only see them as nothing more than a singular representation of some wider political group ("women"). . . . — dukkha
That's clear, but I'd be surprised if that's what you intended to say. It follows from that that the Ewells' libellous accusations of rape against Tom Robinson in 'To Kill a Mockingbird' were not harmful, despite the fact that they led to trauma and finally death for Tom.
Is that your position? — andrewk
Who cares about 'directly' - this new word that you have tried to smuggle into the discussion? Fortunately, the answer is - almost nobody, including the law in most countries. 'Directly' is a meaningless notion.Speech doesn't directly cause other actions, or at least it can not be shown to. — Terrapin Station
Who cares about 'directly' - — andrewk
This sounds a lot like speech affecting things. IOW if libel cannot cause harm, how can abstract disccusions and writing about objectification be problematic or influencing the opinions of other generations. Or if you allow that presentation of certain ideas can influence opinions of other generations, how would this be a problem, since it cannot be responsible for any behavior. so, some ideas are floating around in some minds, that's not a problem. It certainly doesn't affect you in a problematic way and it cannot be blamed for any behavior since behavior is caused by other things. Just as any harm caused by someone saying that so and so was a rapist in the south of that time was not causal, so ideas about objectification or how women are presented in pornography cannot be causal in any way that causes harm.It seems a far bigger problem to me to see a focus on sexual appeal as a problem--and that's what tends to happen. Any focus on sex/sex appeal/sexual attactiveness/etc. is seen as "objectification" (and usually as "misogyny" etc.) It's disheartening how people let rhetoric like that take hold so that it winds up more or less becomes unquestioned and simply accepted as a norm for an entire generation, to an extent where it even starts influencing the opinions of other generations. — Terrapin Station
And presumably writing doesn't either. So, what is problematic about these coming generations having a certain attitude. I suppose you could argue that you dislike these people having wrong attitudes in their minds, but since these wrong attitudes cannot cause harm or behavior, I don't see the problem. (I just realized it almost reads like a kind of dualism - thoughts in a transcendent realm where they cannot be causal (along with words and speech) and matter where harm can take place. Or at least matter where direct causes can happen and verbal communication which cannot be causal.) But perhaps you are feeling empathy for these coming generations, that their minds will have false ideas. But then this cannot be harm. If it were harmful, then saying wrong ideas would be harming people. It would be a kind of weapon, directly causing people to suffer having the wrong ideas in their heads.Speech doesn't directly cause other actions, or at least it can not be shown to. — Terrapin Station
Anyone who is legitimately offended by this (as in, it's not feigned for some political end) is borderline mentally ill. Women are actual individuals, with their own agency, desires, and thoughts! The TRUE objectification of women occurs when you only see them as nothing more than a singular representation of some wider political group ("women"). You reduce women to some homogenous mass, destroying all individuality. — dukkha
by buying the video game, I am indirectly supporting a media establishment that obviously objectifies women in some way to garner a profit. — darthbarracuda
it "sells" and appeals to emotions over logic — IvoryBlackBishop
If you mean consumerism, or people indulging in fatuities such as "googling for cat pictures" instead of doing more productive things, I believe on some level that is a part of human nature, and that people can take action to boycott or remove those things from their lives, so I'm not sure I can blame "capitalism", especially a modern incarnation or notion of it.Of course. Logic is a fine facility for some kinds of problems, but entirely unsuited for cultural appreciation and participation. The opposite is true as well -- sometimes we really have to try very hard to screen out emotional response.
I just want to emphasize that capitalism exploits everyone in every available venue--work, family life, entertainment, leisure, etc. As Marx said, "Under capitalism, everything is reduced to the cash connection."
Capitalism didn't invent exploitation -- that's been around for millennia. What capitalism does is intensify exploitation and make it ubiquitous--and more efficient.
"People" don't like talking about how capitalism degrades life. They would rather talk about sexism, racism, homophobia, xenophobia, blah blah blah, rather than talking about the herd of elephants in the room. Back in the day when there were 3 networks and nothing else, people spent a lot of time criticizing television. most people didn't realize that the IMPORTANT parts of television programming were the commercials; the programs were just bait.
The relationship of users to media is basically the same. The POINT of Facebook, Google, Yahoo, et al is to put advertising in front of eyeballs; that's how they make money. I use Google Search all the time and value it highly -- but search is the bait. Sharing pictures of your cat with the world is the bait for Facebook. At least with pornography, the product and the bait are one and the same thing.
Our use of the internet (what we look at, when, for how long, whether we click or not, all that stuff) is the product that is sold to advertisers. Everything we do socially and economically that can be tracked and valued is tracked and valued. That's why your cell phone keeps track of where you are at every moment of the day (assuming you have not disabled location functions): Where you go and when is very useful information to companies that want to sell you stuff. Of course it's also useful for governments which might have an unsavory interest in what you do with your time--when, where, and with whom.
At least with pornography, the product and the bait are one and the same thing.
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