Source?

inappropriate behavior — Bitter Crank

I find it odd that you of all those here are happy to have the contents of one's underpants determine one's social role.

Right, but at the same time, why is identity wrapped up with the shape and style of one's underpants (and other garments)?

I find it odd that you of all those here are happy to have the contents of one's underpants determine one's social role. — Banno

LOL. It isn't okay, but transgenders reinforce those social roles everytime they claim wearing a dress makes them a woman and then attempts to change what is in their underpants. Why can't a man wear a skirt and still be a man?

There isn't a problem for a man to wear a skirt or earrings or have long hair and still be a man. The problem arises when they claim to be a woman because of these things.

I have doubts about transsexualism, gender dysphoria, and so on, when these terms are applied to adults. Many more doubts when applied to children. — Bitter Crank

Children that young aren't making decisions about their gender. It is their parents. Just look at the case of Dr. Money who was the originator of the idea that gender is a social construction. He tried to force his male patient into being a girl but he knew he wasn't and it ended up messing him up to the point where he committed suicide.

This says it all, really:

Could mental problems come about from bullying, discrimination, scorn, ostracism, self-doubt, systematic attempts to dehumanize, disassociation, perhaps even persecution in some cases/societies, ...?

Seems likely.

Are people actually worried about this chain of association:

(1) Acceptance of gender non-conformity.
=> (2) Parents accept gender non-conformity
=>(3) Children interested in gender reassignment are encouraged to transition early.
=>(4) Lifelong mental scarring.

I mean, what even is this? (1=>2) makes sense, as general public perception changing is likely to change the perception of parents (since they're part of the public). But (2=>3) is a big step, a major medical intervention like gender reassignment will probably be seen like sterilisation, the procedure is not done until someone is of age. (3=>4) makes some amount of sense assuming gender reassignment was a bad idea for the kid and they were forced into it.

Are people really imagining a world where progressive attitudes towards gender conformity reliably lead to forced gender reassignment in kids? This is Fox News death panel crap.

I think the more enlightened attitude is to allow kids to wear whatever clothes or make up they like, and discuss gender and gender identity with them, in a way that's consistent with what we know about it; that most cases of gender identity issues resolve after adolescence without surgery, that gender dysphoria is unpleasant (even if diagnostically/etiologically problematic) but should not be used reductively to gainsay the psychological effects of marginalisation that trans and gender non-conforming people face.

I find it odd that you of all those here are happy to have the contents of one's underpants determine one's social role. — Banno

Being gay or lesbian isn't a form of being transgendered.

The contents of our costumes (underpants and all) have a lot to do with determining who/what/how we are. As for me, I have never thought it was possible for me, or any one else, "to be anything we want to be". There were many things that I might wanted to have been but there were constraints preventing fulfillment. That's just life. There are possibilities and potentials that we can pursue, sure, but we encounter hard constraints. No matter how much I might have wanted to be a heavy-weight boxer, I didn't have the build for that. I might have wanted to be an astrophysicist. I just didn't get an astrophysicist brain. I might have wanted to be a heterosexual macho man, but it wasn't in the cards.

So, there are people who want to want to play the part of the opposite sex. Sure, go ahead WHEN one has the capacity to mastermind the show before one makes one's public debut.

Yes, I believe that's reasonable. However, it's not necessarily what all trangender people want. Some advocate for allowing preteens to start medically transitioning before their natural hormones change them in directions they do not believe they want. I disagree with the whole concept, but I can understand their position.

Yes, I believe that's reasonable. However, it's not necessarily what all trangender people want. Some advocate for allowing preteens to start medically transitioning before their natural hormones change them in directions they do not believe they want. I disagree with the whole concept, but I can understand their position. — Artemis

Hormone therapy's reversible anyway. Easily so. This is the most common treatment, and is given long before the surgical procedure.

Are you sure they're reversible? From a friend who's adult child is transitioning I heard that it causes sterilization. I could be mistaken, however.

"Within a few months of beginning hormone therapy, you must assume that you will become permanently and irreversibly sterile. Some people may maintain a sperm count on hormone therapy, or have their sperm count return after stopping hormone therapy, but you must assume that won’t be the case for you."

https://transcare.ucsf.edu/article/information-estrogen-hormone-therapy

"Within a few months of beginning hormone therapy, you must assume that you will become permanently and irreversibly sterile. Some people may maintain a sperm count on hormone therapy, or have their sperm count return after stopping hormone therapy, but you must assume that won’t be the case for you." — Artemis

Depends on the type IIRC. I don't think young kids are given the sterilising hormone therapy often, for obvious reasons.

Edit: So yeah, the gender transition hormone therapy isn't reversible if it's pursued for a long time, and will eventually sterilise its recipient; but this isn't the usual course of hormone treatment for kids with gender dysphoria.

I've been reading other websites that also suggest the safety of even puberty suppressing (as opposed to gender-affirming) drugs is unknown and hard to ascertain. Clearly there are problems finding case studies and control group and doing any of the usual double-blind type things. It's kind of like studies about pregnancy and breast-feeding: the consequences are possibly too severe and irreversible for researchers to use people as guinea pigs. Especially since puberty, pregnancy, and breastfeeding are all time-limited.

Would you add "I might have wanted to lie with other men; but that's just not how it's done"? No.

In the face of a child who is distressed at being forced to take on a male role, to the point of depression and disengagement, you are happy to force her to wear the clothes of a boy?

Remember the Three Questions? A CIS insistence is no use to her, here, now.

distressed at being forced to take on a male role — Banno

Can you define "male role"?

1) Acceptance of gender non-conformity.
=> (2) Parents accept gender non-conformity
=>(3) Children interested in gender reassignment are encouraged to transition early.
=>(4) Lifelong mental scarring. — fdrake

If parents are raising their children in gender-neutral environment then they arent stressing any particular way of dressing as being man or woman because any gender/sex can wear what they want. Children would be raised in a way as to not make a connection with the way you dress and your sex. But that isn't what is happening. These parents are raising them as the opposite sex and the kids have no choice in the matter. As they develop they realize that they don't share the qualities of that sex/gender and this is what caused the mental anguish because they are confused thanks to their parents, not society.

As they develop they realize that they don't share the qualities of that sex/gender and this is what caused the mental anguish because they are confused thanks to their parents, not society. — Harry Hindu

This is just plain wrong. Unless you raise your child on a deserted island without books or music or any other form of human culture, the child is being shaped by society all the time.

If no man is an island, neither are families.

Would you add "I might have wanted to lie with other men; but that's just not how it's done"? No. — Banno

I did so wish, and fulfillment of the wish had to wait years for the arrival of a suitable time and a place. Had the opportunity "to lie with other men" arrived as early as I wished, the experience would most likely have not been good. Was the long delay frustrating? Of course.

With the 'general' child in view we can confidently propose a sensible course of action. Given the case of a particular child, an 8 year old somewhere in Australia, "sensible advice" might not work. We don't know anything about the history of this 8 year old, or what possible solutions might be available. For blanket statements, Saying "eight year olds should wear whatever gendered clothing they want" seems as ill-advised as saying "eight year olds should never be accommodated on gendered issues." If the choice is suicide vs the girls' pleated plaid outfit then... pleated plaid it is, I suppose. But the pleated plaid option might not work out well in the end, either.

My view of ‘gender’ is that it relates to a three-dimensional structure:

1. physical genitalia (at birth)
2. social role identification (3-11 years)
3. sexual preference (puberty)

The general assumption is that 1 is binary and determines both 2 and 3 in a ‘normal’ human being. Anyone who deviates from this is considered ‘abnormal’ in a variety of value systems. We have been increasing awareness and acceptance of a simple two-dimensional view that includes homosexual preference, but generally maintain that social role identification be irrevocably determined by either 1 or 3.

In reality it is social environment that determines the availability of social roles with which one can identify. Children dress-up and try on roles as diverse as they are given the freedom to: whether that’s doctors and nurses, pirates, princesses, superheroes, dinosaurs, dogs, ducks, etc...

Each time you tell a child they can’t wear that or BE that because they ARE something or someone else, you limit their overall potential. When a child identifies with a social role they’re actively prevented from pursuing, it causes dysphoria. These social role limitations we impose on our children to ‘protect’ them from bullying, etc are in response to the limited social roles we are imposing on our children. The bullying doesn’t come from the children, but is a result of the imposed social environment - influence from parents, teachers, media, etc.

Children don’t need to be told they’re not going to grow up to be a dinosaur. They’re smart enough to work that out for themselves, eventually - as long as we teach them to see the world for what it is. By the same token, they will learn that the clothing they wear can change how people interact with them. They will learn how they feel about that, and that their clothing choices go some way towards choosing the nature of their social interactions, but do not define who they are. If we take away this choice in some respects but not others, if we disallow the choices they make, then what are we teaching them about who they can be?

This is just plain wrong. Unless you raise your child on a deserted island without books or music or any other form of human culture, the child is being shaped by society all the time. — Artemis

Society treats the child the way the parents dress and refer to the child. The parents determine how society treats the child.

Just go look ar Dr. Money's experiment. He told the parents to raise the boy as a girl because the boy lost his penis as the result of an accident during circumcision. The parents dressed him as a girl and refer to him as a girl. Society just went along and didnt know any better.

Just go look ar Dr. Money's experiment. He told the parents to raise the boy as a girl because — Harry Hindu

One case is an interesting reason to look further into a subject. It is not proof of anything.

The parents determine how society treats the child. — Harry Hindu

The parents are not all-powerful. The child is still growing up in a world where people are treated differently based on their sex. Unless you're talking about an unusually stupid and incurious child, they pick up on these things.

Guess the application of puberty blockers comes down to the question; does the benefit of suspending puberty for this patient outweigh the possible risks of applying it? Same thing as usual, probably no blanket statement required.

Guess the application of puberty blockers comes down to the question; does the benefit of suspending puberty for this patient outweigh the possible risks of applying it? — fdrake

Well, there we kind of have to go back to basic questions about transgenderism.

Like, if gender is based on self-id and not physical attributes, why is changing the physical of such importance as to outweigh possible health risks.

Like, if gender is based on self-id and not physical attributes, why is changing the physical of such importance as to outweigh possible health risks. — Artemis

Do you really need to ask those questions when trans people often report that their suffering alleviates somewhat when they perform the role of the appropriate gender and take the appropriate hormones/surgery to modify their body? It'll be a case by case thing; people shouldn't be forced to transition, people who have gender dysphoria as kids should have puberty blockers available but not mandatory (case by case), people who want to transition should be able to (when the circumstances are appropriate and they are able to decide for themselves).

Yes, I do. Because, why only often? Why not always? What is the percentage? Is there a way to tell ahead of time? And on what basis are they happier? Because they actually feel better in their own skin or because other people are nicer when they "pass"? And if the latter, should we be allowing kids to modify their bodies because other people are jerks?

No. Not accommodating an inappropriate behavior isn't punishing the child.

Here we are talking about quite young children deciding they are the opposite gender and demanding to wear clothes (or behave) in the manner of the opposite sex. Young children don't go clothes shopping by themselves (one would hope) so how does this problem arise? By the parents providing the clothing the child wanted to wear. Why would an adult take their 6 year old's clothing preferences as a directive, let alone something as major and complex as identity? — Bitter Crank

Why is it inappropriate for one child to wear clothes that it's appropriate for a child with different genitals to wear?

The issue isn't that we should accommodate inappropriate behaviour; the issue is that the behaviour isn't inappropriate at all. Nonconforming, perhaps, but not inappropriate.

Yes, I do. Because, why only often? Why not always? What is the percentage? Is there a way to tell ahead of time? And on what basis are they happier? Because they actually feel better in their own skin or because other people are nicer when they "pass"? And if the latter, should we be allowing kids to modify their bodies because other people are jerks? — Artemis

Why often: there's a trend that trans people's wellbeing improves when they adopt the roles and bodies of the desired gender.

Why not always: individual level variability - in addition to neurological and bodily variability, there's also socio-economic context and socialisation which vary strongly.

What is the percentage that are effected positively: depends on the diagnostic intervention and target demographic, considering that trans people are often receiving mental health therapy in addition to other interventions, the causes of improvement are difficult to isolate (for this and other reasons).

On what basis are they happier: self reports or other outcome indicators typical of long term cohort studies. This is tricky, since you can't isolate the hormone therapy from what causes it to be present, or the social context of the study participants. The relevant contrast there is trans people feel they must transition but cannot or have not, and trans people who feel they must transition and have. Considering no one would take life altering surgery lightly, people who have transitioned are a decent proxy for the latter, and the general non-transitioned (but possibly not non-binary/still sexual binary) population are an ok proxy for the first. If you look at this contrast case you see improvements in wellbeing from transitioning. Whether you see improvements in wellbeing from hormone therapy is a different test case, it seems like we do, though perhaps it's different for non-binary individuals.

Is there a way to tell ahead of time; probably not in all cases, individual level variability is high; there will be heuristics that are applied contextually; like age, effect of treatment, severity of dysphoria. Treat the patient not the ailment applies well here. Diagnostic guidelines say as much too (and there's lots of screening for sex reassignment surgery and hormone therapy!)

Because they actually feel better in their own skin or because other people are nicer when they "pass"?

If it was required to trace the aetiology of any mental health effecting condition to general patterns in the population before administering any treatment, no treatment would ever be administered for mental health issues. There are screens in place - it's hard to get puberty blockers or hormone therapy. Especially hard for kids.

If it was required to trace the aetiology of any mental health effecting condition to general patterns in the population before administering any treatment, no treatment would ever be administered for mental health issues. There are screens in place - it's hard to get puberty blockers or hormone therapy. Especially hard for kids. — fdrake

I don't think there's a responsible, compassionate case to be made that we should try not to answer these very basic questions before proceeding with treatment that is possibly more dangerous than non-medical intervention.