Trans men get erased from conversations like these because men tend not to care if trans men use their spaces. Nobody will be outraged by Leo Macallan in a men's room. — BitconnectCarlos
unisex toilets — Michael
It is for society to work out how to protect trans women. — Malcolm Parry
But if the law requires that one's biological sex determines which bathroom one can use then plenty of women will be outraged by Leo Macallan in a women's bathroom. — Michael
Sure, and I wouldn't support such a law. However, I don't believe that male genitalia belongs in women's locker rooms under any circumstances.
I have heard of incidents where FtMs enter women's locker rooms, and it leads to chaos. — BitconnectCarlos
No. Trans people should generally strive to act in ways that facilitate social cohesion and integration. A very passable trans woman (e.g., Blaire White) belongs in a women's restroom even with male genitalia. — BitconnectCarlos
Trans people should generally strive to act in ways that facilitate social cohesion and integration. — BitconnectCarlos
Who gets to decide whether or not someone is passing? — Michael
If a man decides to start using women's spaces, is anyone even allowed to confront him in your view? What is the proper response if he claims to be trans but just hasn't started transitioning?
It can be difficult. Ambiguity is inherent to gender transition; it is a process, not an immediate switch from A to B. — BitconnectCarlos
Yeah. It's the difference between being cautious around men for good reasons and assuming that men are latent rapists, the former's something behavioural and can {and usually is} done without prejudice, the latter treats men as if they are always on the verge of boiling over into rape as if it's an essential facet of masculinity, just waiting to get out — fdrake
In the discussion, the latter move also calls trans women men — fdrake
responds to trans women as if they are latent rapists on the basis that they aremenmale. — fdrake
rape anpossible aspect of every man's personality — fdrake
You can just believe that without doing a Dworkin and saying penis = rape. — fdrake
The lobbyists here were calling trans folk rapists loudly in the street and handing out pamphlets to that effect. — fdrake
I also looked at your spreadsheets — fdrake
There is provision for any female prisoner - trans or not - to be housed in a men's prison if she's deemed especially dangerous.
I hope the analogy is sufficiently on the nose that I don't need to substitute things into it. — fdrake
The MoJ is hesitant to conclude that the trans folk in the data are representative of trans folk's patterns of offending, why? — fdrake
particularly dangerous sex offenders of women in men's prisons. — fdrake
So what was the purpose of the bill, if we need to talk about it in terms of trans women in prisons? — fdrake
Determined by what? — Michael
They’re intersex — Michael
s a transgender woman more likely to sexually assault a cisgender woman in a women's prison than a cisgender man to sexually assault a transgender woman in a men's prison? — Michael
What about biology determines if someone is male or female? You don’t seem to recognise that being intersex is a biological condition — Michael
biological sex is determined by outward appearance — Michael
the English words "male" and "female" refer to two clearly defined, mutually exclusive, and exhaustive biological qualities — Michael
every human is either male or female, even if it's difficult for us to determine which. And that's simply not the case. — Michael
Why should transgender women have to be exposed to cisgender male violence for cisgender women to be protected from transgender female violence? — Michael
There is no single determinant in these cases. — Michael
Who gets to decide whether or not someone is passing? — Michael
And yes, unisex toilets are one way out of this difficulty. — BitconnectCarlos
SRY. — AmadeusD
The person who can tell that they aren't. — AmadeusD
Why does appearance matter? If the concern is the safety and well being of cisgender women, and if you say that trans women who pass as biological women ought use women's bathrooms, then there's the implicit claim that trans women who pass as biological women are less likely to sexually assault cisgender women in women's bathrooms than trans women who don't pass as biological women. Is there any basis behind such a claim? — Michael
I have literally no clue how this analogy relates to our stats. — AmadeusD
I believe that Jane passes as a woman. John believes that Jane doesn't pass as a woman. — Michael
You could not have found trans women in it if they'd served time for petty things with minimal sentences. — fdrake
Which are sentences we don't actually care about, for this assessment. Perhaps that's why I saw no relevance. I cannot understand why you would care about other crimes, when we're tlaking about propensity to commit sexual assault. — AmadeusD
They're doing that because they feel the trans woman is a man and is thus more of a risk, which they can be incorrect about if they are in fact a woman or are not more of a risk. A potential discussion of perceived safety vs real risk would also be interesting! — fdrake
The maths of the situation makes it appear that trans women are much bigger criminals than they are, and the amount of exaggeration depends entirely upon the unobserved trans population, which committed petty crimes. — fdrake
Passing isn't a criterion for me, though, so unsure why I'm asked to defend it. — AmadeusD
An active one, yes. That seems to be the deduction of biology. — AmadeusD
If you disagree with his position then my question isn't relevant, so I'm not sure why you answered it. — Michael
The deduction of biology is that an active SRY gene is responsible for the development of testes. — Michael
Then someone with ovotesticular disorder is both biologically male and biologically female, and someone with gonadal dysgenesis is neither biologically male nor biologically female. — Michael
SRY determines maleness. — AmadeusD
Neither of these is true. — AmadeusD
You missed the preceding sentence: — Michael
what is the connection between an active SRY gene and being biologically male? — Michael
but I need to disagree with you. — Jeremy Murray
Yeah I agree, you just have to think about why they're doing that. They're doing that because they feel the trans woman is a man and is thus more of a risk, which they can be incorrect about if they are in fact a woman or are not more of a risk. A potential discussion of perceived safety vs real risk would also be interesting! — fdrake
what matters is fact. we have a number of factual examples of trans 'women' raping or assaulting women in female prisons. — Jeremy Murray
But your arguments seem entirely of the woke variety, despite the fact that woke arguments continue to be proven wrong? — Jeremy Murray
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