gender dysphoria is a very serious issue, the rates of suicide and attempted suicide by transgender people are upwards of 75% and I feel like you are just trying to say that it is a casual want instead of what it really is, the ability to be who we really are. because we don't just want to be the opposite gender we are the opposite gender it just so happens to be that we are born into the wrong bodies, because it has been proven that transgender people literally have the mind of a cisgender person of the opposite birthsex. — sarah young
But since they don't know you, they can't hate you — Artemis
I think you're missing my point.They're both wrong, and you're wrong. We can change internal features as surely as we can change external ones. So if sex is constitutively determined by some arrangement of physical features, then a person's sex can be changed. Not just apparently changed, but actually changed. — Bartricks
I pointedly used conditionals in the OP. I said 'if' sex is constitutively determined by physical features (including chromosomal structure) then it can obviously be changed. — Bartricks
The identity of an animal is determined by billions of base pairs of DNA. A creature's identity, once composed, is fixed -- that's my view. You don't have to agree with it. A rabbit is a rabbit; it can not become a wolf. a salmon is a salmon; it can not become a bear. Homo sapiens are a particular variety of primate, and there is nothing we can do about that. Nor should do. — Bitter Crank
But we (all creatures great and small) have a stable and, for all practical purposes, an unchanging identity. This is a good thing, again in my opinion. A creature can fulfill the role for which it is suited. Some creatures can fulfill several roles. An ox can be a source of meat, and a source of traction. An ox can not breed, however, because oxen are sterilized male cattle.
What a man can do is take the role of a woman; visa versa for a woman. There may be satisfactions in so doing. Again what can not be change is "identity". — Bitter Crank
Not true. An individual's DNA mutates over time.(reference)The identity of an animal is determined by billions of base pairs of DNA. A creature's identity, once composed, is fixed — Bitter Crank
Imagine that tomorrow scientists discover a very easy way in which chromosomal structure can be changed. All it takes is the consumption of a pill and, overnight, your chromosomal structure will be changed. — Bartricks
ince your validity is not determined by what other people think, best not to pay attention to naysayers. Us women have had to deal with people questioning our validity for millennia, whether trans or cis. Easier said than done, but that's all you can do. — Artemis
If that's true, then it seems quite obvious that sex can be changed. For no physical object seems to have any of its features - apart from mere extension - invariably, and thus any physical object's properties can be changed. That which is square can be made spherical; that which is red can be made blue; that which is small can be made bigger, and that which is male can be made female. So, if sex is physically determined, that doesn't imply it can't be changed. Indeed, quite the opposite: if sex is physical 'of course' it can be changed (though we might differ on just what needs to be changed). — Bartricks
I think most of those who claim sex can't be changed will change their mind if a pill is created that in every way changes one's sex. — Hanover
You exaggerate your opponent's position to suggest most of them are arguing that sex is metaphysically immutable. — Hanover
A clownfish changes gender over its life as do other reef fish after all. — Hanover
There is validity to the argument that a man cannot be made the same as a biologically born woman as a matter of current scientific fact. The immutability of gender argument you've attacked appears to attack a strawman, or at least a very very minority held position. — Hanover
Is a trans woman and a cis woman the same to me? No, not really. One has female genes and female genitalia and the other male genes and no genitalia. That is just the truth. I'd change my mind if the pill you described were created though. — Hanover
(A) If someone's a given sex when and only when they have most of the sexual characteristics associated with that sex, then we can't change sexes through surgery and medicine at the minute. — fdrake
When I say sex lies deeper, I mean it is defined separately to one's appearance (e.g. hair length, genitals, a particular chromosome or not), in terms of one’s sex itself. — TheWillowOfDarkness
When I say sex lies deeper, I mean it is defined separately to one's appearance (e.g. hair length, genitals, a particular chromosome or not), in terms of one’s sex itself. It is not a status obtained by having one sort of appearance or another, but a substantial feature itself. — TheWillowOfDarkness
If that works for you, fine. To me it sounds non-sensical. In my experience, men who look like men (general physical characteristics, specifics of penis, testicles, beard, body hair, manner-of-being-in-the-world) also act and identify as men. The same (different features) goes for women. Not 100% of the time, but more than 99%. Maybe I hang around with an unusually conventional group of people, but I don't think that is the case.
It IS the case that men and women can perform many roles traditionally assigned to the opposite. Men can be effective nurses, women can be effective soldiers (so reports have it, anyway). Some men are homebodies, and some women are out carousing all night. But female soldiers and all-night carousers generally think of themselves as women. Male nurses and homebodies continue to them of themselves as men.
Were society organized differently (in other cultures it has been) men and women occupy roles which in the US are oppositely assigned. For instance, women in many countries do heavy outdoor work, not exclusively, but consistently.
It is my impression that you are NOT talking about gender-linked occupational roles -- like only men get to be bricklayers and only women get to be nurses.
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