Organisms are a starting point for any exploration of reality because we know with certainty they exist and what they are. — Barry Z
Organisms are a starting point for any exploration of reality because we know with certainty they exist and what they are. On the other hand if one starts with God or a similar primordial force its existence is always going to be uncertain to the extent it can be inferred. More can be learned about the nature of God from having the context you can only get when starting with organism. The same is true when comparing organism with materialism. More information is gained with organism as a beginning than trying to explain how lifeless matter develops consciousness and will. — Barry Z
I think Deism comes to mind immediately when exploring a philosophy of organism, though other conceptions of God are not all excluded. The idea of organism on a cosmic scale and its relation to organisms familiar to us on a microcosmic scale was explored by Plato and studied widely through the Middle Ages. Do not know why this line of inquiry was abandoned, but Whitehead picked up on it again in the late 1920’s. — Barry Z
More information is gained with organism as a beginning than trying to explain how lifeless matter develops consciousness and will. — Barry Z
In a pre-life environment the only way for molecules to be formed is through random process. All organic compounds which are necessary for life must be assembled by a random process.
Which level? Physics?Randomness is on a different level, not chemistry or biology. — Zelebg
Are:Atoms and molecules are bound to strict rules with limited possibilities, and they actively seek to form those possibilities, which is rather opposite of 'random'. — Zelebg
Which level? Physics?
This demonstrates the impact that empirical biological information could have on metaphysical thought. — Barry Z
I probably should have been more precise. Deism and God are part of a larger set of concepts that may better be called simply a force, of some kind . Maybe a natural force, or cosmic force? Would you accept an explanation that is more than simply life arising from physical matter? If so perhaps we can reach agreement? If not I am happy to engage in that debate. — Barry Z
Even allowing for the fact that there could be a trillion or more sustainable life forms that could come from reaching a chain of 160,000 pairs. The end result is it will take many orders of magnitude more time than the 14 billion years old the universe is currently estimated to be for life to originate from a pre life environment. — Barry Z
I think Deism comes to mind immediately — Barry Z
Deism is a valid, albeit useless belief. You can do nothing with it, except having it come to your mind. — god must be atheist
Perhaps instead of just telling me of my deficiencies in understanding natural sciences you can explain what made you reach that conclusion? — Barry Z
I would love to hear also how I can understand "organism qua organism" better? Perhaps you can start by explaining what "organism qua organism" means to you? — Barry Z
I would venture to say that to your mind Deism comes immediately, no matter what the topic of discussion or contention is.
Deism is a valid, albeit useless belief. You can do nothing with it, except having it come to your mind. — god must be atheist
If i were to add in degradation of the DNA and the primordial pools and then the probability of producing proteins and other necessary precursors of life I suspect no matter how long the odds became from having necessary concurrent and successive processes in place your answer would be the same.
Didn't I explain there is no randomness in chemistry or biology? H and O will always produce H2O, and never H4O3 or HO5. Chemical formulas are deterministic like 1+1=2, you know? So what odds are you talking about? — Zelebg
Yes, but randomness applies to chemical action in a solution, colloid, and perhaps a mixture, how the particles come in contact in order to get to the point where they can interact. Think Brownian motion.
I would ask you what is the value of knowing the age of the universe? This estimate has come about as a result of considerable scientific effort. — Barry Z
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