Religious law is a formal system of morality that rests on system-wide premises, i.e. its scriptures. — alcontali

Islamic scriptures are a wildly incoherent collection of oral transmissions. The only system-wide premise that you will find is "good is what is good for islam". So not sure what you want to enter in your model.

Of anyone wants to hear the most spelt sexless music, listen to 99 most essential gregorian chants on Youtube. Islam does not know sexless. In Daoism, the ejaculation are pulled in (semen goes to the bladder then) so the man becomes yin and the woman yang.

An Eastern Christian church says it has the Ark of the Covenant. Some of the Eastern saints were very violent. Seeing no reason to choose one religion over another - leaping over them all

Islamic scriptures are a wildly incoherent collection of oral transmissions. — Nobeernolife

You know absolutely nothing about the Islamic scriptures.
You think you know, but you don't.
Welcome to the Dunning-Kruger effect running loose again:

In the field of psychology, the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from the inability of people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, people cannot objectively evaluate their competence or incompetence.[1] — Wikipedia on the Dunning-Kruger effect

What you have said, is again a prominent example of liberal-arts ignorance and arrogance. Those degrees are worthless, simply because that way of thinking is worthless.

Islam has no authority with an infallibility pedigree to deal with modern problems. I defy them even to define sex according to the Quran. In Daoism the man becomes the woman and the woman the man through climax. You need a living authority competent to teach

Protestants take that living authority as the holy spirit. Rome for Catholics. Muslims are forbidden to look for signs, logically, because then there is the resurrection, Fatima, and hundreds of other things. So no signs can give them a living authority. Does the Koran define gender even? America is called the great satan but most true hermaphrodites who are strippers or more are from the Orient. How can the Koran define which sex these people are? We can set aside the shemale ladyboy thing, since that is transition. There will be far to many modern questions like cloning and a hundred other things, which this ancient system can't handle. Bigotry is not welcome in the West. Come on people

God is not one! Only haters say others

but most true hermaphrodites who are strippers or more are from the Orient — Gregory

While Iran has outlawed homosexuality, Iranian Shi'a thinkers such as Ayatollah Khomeini have allowed for transgender people to change their sex so that they can enter heterosexual relationships. This position has been confirmed by the Supreme Leader of Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, and is also supported by many other Iranian clerics.

Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except for Thailand. It is regarded as a cure for homosexuality, which is punishable by death under Iranian law. The government even provides up to half the cost for those needing financial assistance and a sex change is recognized on the birth certificate.[161] — Wikipedia on transgenders in Islam

The Shia position on the matter is currently much more accepting of transgenderism than the Sunni one, where there is currently no clear "ijma" (consensus) and where legal opinions are much more divided. But then again, I am not a religious scholar and I am not the right person to ask for a religious advisory on the matter.

You know absolutely nothing about the Islamic scriptures. — alcontali

Actually, I have read them all, plus plenty of interpretations by leading clerics (which you admitted to being completely ignorant of).

Actually, I have read them all, plus plenty of interpretations by leading clerics (which you admitted to being completely ignorant of). — Nobeernolife

In Islam, the ulama (/ˈuːləˌmɑː/; Arabic: علماء‎ ʿUlamāʾ, singular عالِم ʿĀlim, "scholar", literally "the learned ones",[1] also spelled ulema; feminine: alimah [singular] and uluma [plural])[2] are the guardians, transmitters and interpreters of religious knowledge in Islam, including Islamic doctrine and law.[2]

By longstanding tradition, ulama are educated in religious institutions (madrasas). The Quran and sunnah (authentic hadith), are the scriptural sources of traditional Islamic law.[3] — Wikipedia on the Ulema

You have not duly trained as an alim and therefore you are not a member of the ulema. You have no credibility whatsoever in the field of interpreting or applying the Islamic scriptures. Again, you are clearly ignorant and incompetent on the subject, and your views are also annoyingly arrogant.

The alim and ulema are not a "I'm better" aristocratics? I wonder if Sartre considered himself an aristocratic. Quick question: how does Islam define workaholism?

A psychologist would describe Islamic nations as distinct groups of sex addicted workaholics.

he alim and ulema are not a "I'm better" aristocratics? — Gregory

No, just like a doctor, an alim is not necessarily an "I'm better" aristocrat.

The job of a doctor is typically to figure out from your flailing story about "feeling unwell, having pain here and there" what exactly is going on, if figuring that out, is uberhaupt possible.

So, the doctor proceeds with his "theorem discovery" activity by for example commissioning a stool lab test for the presence of H. pylori bacteria, from which he can then justify his opinion that this infection is the reason for your stomach ache.

His belief is justified from the paperwork produced by the laboratory.
You do not need to believe what he says, merely because he is a doctor.
That would be the wrong approach.

No, you may believe what he says, because his opinion is backed by justifying paperwork.

The fact that he is a doctor dramatically increases the likelihood that he will correctly translate your flailing story into an opinion that can be backed by justifying paperwork. That is why you chose to ask him and not, for example, an electrician, for a medical opinion.

As long as a practitioner, who specializes in a particular field, can produce justifying paperwork for his conclusion -- preferably mechanically verifiable paperwork -- it makes sense for customers to ask such specialized practitioner for his opinion.

It is all based on the idea that the discovery of the solution is harder than verifying that such purported solution truly is the solution. It all goes back to the "P vs NP Problem":

If it is easy to check that a solution to a problem is correct, is it also easy to solve the problem? This is the essence of the P vs NP question. Typical of the NP problems is that of the Hamiltonian Path Problem: given N cities to visit, how can one do this without visiting a city twice? If you give me a solution, I can easily check that it is correct. But I cannot so easily find a solution. — Third millenium prize. One-million dollar prize for a proof why it seems to be like that.

Considering how much work Muslims put in, they suck

In Islam, the ulama (/ˈuːləˌmɑː/; Arabic: علماء‎ ʿUlamāʾ, singular عالِم ʿĀlim, "scholar", literally "the learned ones",[1] also spelled ulema; feminine: alimah [singular] and uluma [plural])[2] are the guardians, transmitters and interpreters of religious knowledge in Islam, including Islamic doctrine and law — Wikipedia on the Ulema

....and every time I have quoted an islamic scholar, you said you don´t know them and anyway in islam there is no scholarly authority.

Go figure.

A psychologist would describe Islamic nations as distinct groups of sex addicted workaholics. — Gregory

Where do you get the "workaholics" from??

....and every time I have quoted an islamic scholar, you said you don´t know them and anyway in islam there is no scholarly authority. Go figure. — Nobeernolife

You have a very poor epistemic understanding of what the term "knowledge" means. That is the source of your confusion. The underlying reason for that is that your stint in the liberal arts has totally confused you about what this term is all about. There is technically no knowledge in the liberal arts, because none of its beliefs can be justified.

So, let me repeat all over again.

We use specialized practitioners to discover a solution in a particular field. We only know that their solution truly is the solution because the justifying paperwork that they supply is verifiable. So, we verify the justification, preferably, even mechanically.

Hence, while it is the specialist's job to discover a solution and produce justifying paperwork for it, it is the user's own responsibility to verify that paperwork.

If the user fails to verify the justifying paperwork, then this user is just an idiot, who is asking to be manipulated and deceived. In other words, if you blindly trust a specialized practitioner, you are better off not even using his services, because in that case, you have no "purchasing ability".

For example, not everybody can commission repair work on a nuclear plant. The corporate purchasing or sourcing officer who places the order for the repair work does not need to be able to carry out the repairs by himself, but he will still need to be able to verify the proposals made by specialized contractors, and choose the best solution, as well as verifying the delivery of the repairs.

In other words, the ability to buy specialized services also requires some knowledge; not necessarily the knowledge to produce these services, but certainly the knowledge to pick the right service provider and to verify his delivery.

Seriously, your lack of common sense is astonishing.

You have a very poor epistemic understanding of what the term "knowledge" means. That is the source of your confusion. The underlying reason for that is that your stint in the liberal arts has totally confused you about what this term is all about. There is technically no knowledge in the liberal arts, because none of its beliefs can be justified. — alcontali

I do not know what you are waffling about about, and I suspect neither are you. I pointed out a numer of facts about islam, which you first denied and then declared you did not know. I pointed islamic scholars which first did not know and then declared are irrelevant. You accused me of not knowing islamic scripture and I pointed out I indeed read it. Then you declared only islamic scholare are are able to interpret islamic scriptures (something that you denied earlier).

You know nothing about me personally, yet you claimed I am Jewish (which I am not) or that I study liberal arts (which I do not). Now you are waffling about nuclear power plants.

Let is just say that II sure as hell would not want to rely on a nuclear power plant designed by someone with your, err, logical thinking abolity.

I do not know what you are waffling about about, and I suspect neither are you. — Nobeernolife

I was just saying that you do not seem to have any understanding of epistemology.

You accused me of not knowing islamic scripture and I pointed out I indeed read it. — Nobeernolife

You misunderstand the term "to know". Remembering trivia from skimming through long bouts of text has nothing to do with the epistemic meaning of the verb "to know". Again, you "know" nothing about Islamic scriptures, if only, because you do not even understand the epistemic meaning of the term "to know", let alone, what the religion of Islam is all about.

Then you declared only islamic scholare are are able to interpret islamic scriptures (something that you denied earlier). — Nobeernolife

Read up on the very, very basics of epistemology.

You do not seem to be capable of distinguishing between the act of discovering new knowledge and verifying that this new knowledge is indeed knowledge. I have even pointed out to you the "P vs NP" question, but you do not seem to understand it ... at all.

Let is just say that II sure as hell would not want to rely on a nuclear power plant designed by someone with your, err, logical thinking abolity. — Nobeernolife

Too late.

I have been involved in a project in which I wrote software for the quality control of nuclear fuel rods. I have also been involved in a project writing software related to the revision and scheduling of repairs on a steam cracker.

If any of these industrial installations fall apart, it is too late to annoy me with that matter, because in the meanwhile I moved on to lots of other gigs until finally cashing out from my last startup.

Of course, I could ask you how much you have been able to invoice your customers for your logical thinking ability, but I won't, because I am not as arrogant as you are. Still, have you ever been paid even once for your logical thinking ability?

Of course, in liberal arts courses sometimes they read Averroes and Avicenna, and usually the Aristotle those two loved. So in attacking liberal arts you are attacking Islamic philosophical traditions. Is this because you suck at philosophy? After all, you can't even prove there is a God? You tried, you failed. Your only argument was "infinite regress is impossible", which I refute above in this thread

As modern science get's more nominalistic, it breaks the spine of Islamic law, which can't handle all the questions that arise in our age. Even the religion with the stronger pedigree, Catholicism, will bow before science, as it's infallible authority (the Pope, or the Pope with all the bishops together collegially) realizes it has no tools from the Bible and Tradition to handle these issues which confuse them on natural law. I predict Rome will keep issuing weak ass "ordinary Magisterial" (fallible) decrees with general guidance. I prophecy that Islamic scholars will keep thinking they are the wisest in their consensuses, but will feel sorrow as their world is left behind

I prophecy that Islamic scholars will keep thinking they are the wisest in their consensuses, but will feel sorrow as their world is left behind — Gregory

You are not a very prophet. Islam growing massively, and not because of some intellectual success, but because of the combination of demographics and Western political corretness.

After all, you can't even prove there is a God? You tried, you failed. Your only argument was "infinite regress is impossible", which I refute above in this thread — Gregory

Proving God from what axioms?
I am not interested in any of that.

I am only interested in religious law as a formal system.

I find the most interesting project in this realm to be the mechanical verification of the syntactic entailments from scripture that justify religious advisories. What proof assistant would be the most suitable: Coq or Isabelle? My intuition says that Coq is the way to go, but I am certainly open to suggestions.

Anything to say about Coq versus Isabelle?

If you want to discuss bullshit, however, you will have to do that with someone else.

As modern science get's more nominalistic, it breaks the spine of Islamic law, which can't handle all the questions that arise in our age. — Gregory

STEM has universal appeal. You will find Chinese, Brazilian, Pakistani, and Namibian engineers working together on a common project. Muslims have no problems whatsoever with STEM fields. Your liberal-arts nonsense, however, is widely despised outside the West. As matter of fact, it is also widely despised within the West.

Muslims have no problems whatsoever with STEM fields. — alcontali

Really?
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16258-how-to-stop-creationism-gaining-a-hold-in-islam/

Muslims have no problems whatsoever with STEM fields. — alcontali

Really? https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16258-how-to-stop-creationism-gaining-a-hold-in-islam/ — Nobeernolife

STEM is not about dealing with useless verbiage.

The core question is : What can you do with evolution theory? What applications? Where is the money? Where are the markets?

Show me one product, service, or technology in general that depends on evolution theory. Furthermore, in a falsificationist sense, show me even just one experimental test to be carried out in a laboratory in which we would be able to successfully evolve one species out of another.

Just one example country, Pakistan, to give you an indication of the interest in STEM fields amongst Muslims:

List of engineering universities in Pakistan

Islamabad
Abasyn University, Peshawar, Islamabad Campus[1]
Air University, Islamabad[2]
Bahria University, Islamabad (Main Campus)[3]
Sir Syed CASE Institute of Technology Islamabad[4]
COMSATS University Islamabad (Main Campus)[5]
Federal Urdu University of Arts, Science & Technology, Islamabad (Main Campus)[6]
Hamdard Institute of Engineering and Technology, Islamabad Campus (Hamdard University, Karachi)
Institute of Space Technology, Islamabad[7]
National University of Sciences and Technology (Pakistan), Islamabad
International Islamic University, Islamabad
Islamic International Engineering College, Islamabad (Riphah International University, Islamabad)[8]
Iqra University, Islamabad Campus (Iqra University, Karachi)
Capital University of Science & Technology, Islamabad
National University of Computer and Emerging Sciences, Islamabad (Main Campus)[9]
National University of Modern Languages, Islamabad (Main Campus)
Pakistan Institute of Engineering and Applied Sciences, Islamabad[10]
Grafton College, Islamabad[11]

Punjab
COMSATS University Islamabad (Sahiwal Campus)[12]
Pakistan Institute of Engineering and Technology, Multan[13]
University of Engineering and Technology, Rasul[14]
Army Public College of Management Sciences, Rawalpindi (University of Engineering and Technology, Taxila)[15]
Dr. A. Q. Khan Institute of Computer Sciences and Information Technology, Rawalpindi [16]
COMSATS University Islamabad (Lahore Campus)[17]
Sharif College of Engineering and Technology, Lahore Affiliated with UET Lahore[18]
COMSATS University Islamabad (Wah Campus)[19]
National University of Sciences and Technology (Pakistan), College of Electrical and Mechanical Engineering, Rawalpindi Campus[20]
HITEC University, Taxila Cantonment[21]
Information Technology University (Lahore)[22]
Institute of Advanced Materials, Bahauddin Zakariya University, Multan
Lahore University of Management Sciences, Lahore[23]
National University of Sciences and Technology (Pakistan), Military College of Signals, Rawalpindi Campus
National Textile University, Faisalabad
National University of Computer and Emerging Sciences, Islamabad, (Lahore Campus)[24]
NFC Institute of Engineering and Fertilizer Research, Faisalabad (University of Engineering and Technology, Lahore)[25]
NFC Institute of Engineering and Technology, Multan)[26]
Swedish College of Engineering and Technology Affiliated with UET-Lahore, Rahim Yar Khan[27]
Swedish College of Engineering And Technology affiliated with UET-Taxila, Wah Cantt[28]
Rachna College of Engineering and Technology, Gujranwala (University of Engineering and Technology, Lahore)[29]
School of Engineering, University of Management and Technology, Lahore
University of Central Punjab, Lahore[30]
University of Lahore, Lahore (Main Campus)[31]
University College of Engineering and Technology, Multan (Bahauddin Zakariya University, Multan)[32]
Bahauddin Zakariya University College of Textile Engineering, Multan (Bahauddin Zakariya University, Multan)[33]
University College of Engineering and Technology, Bahawalpur (Islamia University, Bahawalpur)[34]
University of Agriculture, Faisalabad[35]
University of Engineering and Technology, Taxila (Main Campus)[36]
University of Engineering and Technology, Taxila (Chakwal Campus)[37]
University of Engineering and Technology, Lahore
University of Faisalabad, Faisalabad
University of Gujrat, Gujrat[38]
University of Wah, Wah Cantonment[39]
Muhammad Nawaz Sharif University of Engineering and Technology, Multan
University College of Engineering Sciences & Technology, Lahore Leads University
University College of Engineering & Technology, University of Sargodha
Khawaja Fareed University of Engineering and Information Technology, Rahim Yar Khan[40]
Quaid-e-Azam College of Engineering and Technology, Sahiwal[41]
University of South Asia, Lahore[42]
Namal Institute, Mianwali[43]
Government College University, Lahore[44]
Government College University, Faisalabad[45]
Imperial College of Business Studies, Lahore
GIFT University, Gujranwala[46]
Lahore College for Women University, Lahore[47]
University of the Punjab, Lahore[48]

Khyber Pakhtunkhwa
CECOS University of Information Technology and Emerging Sciences, Peshawar[49]
National University of Sciences and Technology (Pakistan), College of Aeronautical Engineering, Risalpur Campus[50]
COMSATS University Islamabad (Abbottabad Campus)[51]
City University of Science and Information Technology, Peshawar
Gandhara Institute of Science and Technology, PGS Engineering College (University of Engineering and Technology, Peshawar)[52]
Ghulam Ishaq Khan Institute of Engineering Sciences and Technology, Topi, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa - Swabi[53]
IQRA National University, Peshawar (Formerly Iqra University, Karachi (Peshawar Campus)[54]
National University of Sciences and Technology (Pakistan), Military College of Engineering (Pakistan), Risalpur Campus[55]
National University of Computer and Emerging Sciences, Islamabad (Peshawar Campus)[56]
University of Engineering and Technology, Peshawar (Main Campus)[57]
University of Engineering and Technology, Peshawar (Jalozai Campus)[58]
University of Engineering and Technology, Peshawar (Bannu Campus)[59]
University of Engineering and Technology, Peshawar (Abbottabad Campus)[60]
University of Engineering and Technology, Peshawar (Kohat Campus)[61]
Peshawar College of Engineering, Peshawar (University of Engineering and Technology, Peshawar)[62]
Sarhad University of Science and Information Technology, Peshawar
Abasyn University, Peshawar (Main Campus)[63]
Gomal University, Dera Ismail Khan
University of Engineering and Technology, Mardan[64]

Sindh
Muhammad Ali Jinnah University, Karachi[65]
Habib University, Karachi[66]
Shaheed Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto Institute of Science and Technology, Karachi
Bahria University, Islamabad (Karachi Campus)[67]
Dawood University of Engineering and Technology, Karachi
Hamdard Institute of Engineering & Technology, Karachi (Hamdard University, Karachi)[68]
Iqra University, Karachi (Main Campus)[69]
Indus University, Karachi (Formerly Indus Institute of Higher Education, Karachi)
DHA Suffa University, Karachi
Institute of Business Management, Karachi
Institute of Industrial Electronics Engineering (Pakistan Council of Scientific and Industrial Research), Karachi (NED University of Engineering and Technology, Karachi)[70]
Mehran University of Engineering and Technology, Jamshoro[71]
Mehran University College of Engineering and Technology, Shaheed Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto Campus, Khairpur Mirs (Mehran University of Engineering and Technology, Jamshoro)
National University of Computer and Emerging Sciences, Islamabad (Karachi Campus)[72]
NED University of Engineering and Technology, Karachi[73]
National University of Sciences and Technology (Pakistan), Pakistan Navy Engineering College, Karachi[74]
Karachi Institute of Economics and Technology (PAF-KIET), Karachi[75]
Plastics Technology Center, Karachi (Constituent College of National Textile University, Faisalabad)[76]
Quaid-e-Awam University of Engineering, Science and Technology, Nawabshah[77]
Quaid-e-Awam University College of Engineering, Science and Technology, Larkana (Quaid-e-Awam University of Engineering, Science and Technology, Nawabshah)
Sir Syed University of Engineering and Technology, Karachi[78]
Sindh Agriculture University, Tando Jam[79]
Synthetic Fibre Development and Application Center, Karachi (Constituent College of National Textile University, Faisalabad)
Sukkur IBA University, Sukkur
Usman Institute of Technology, Karachi (NED University, Karachi)[80]
University of Karachi, Karachi[81]
Barrett Hodgson University, Karachi[82]
Nazeer Hussain University, Karachi[83]

Balochistan
Balochistan University of Engineering and Technology, Khuzdar[84]
Balochistan University of Information Technology, Engineering and Management Sciences, Quetta (Takatu Campus)[85]

Azad Jammu and Kashmir
Mirpur University of Science and Technology, Mirpur, Azad Kashmir[86]
University of Azad Jammu and Kashmir, Muzaffarabad, Azad Kashmir[87] — List of engineering universities in Pakistan

Again, you simply don't know what you are talking about.

Worse, in line with the Dunning-Kruger effect, you do not even know that you do not know. That leads you to believe that you know it all, while in reality, you know fuck all.

Show me one product, service, or technology in general that depends on evolution theory. Furthermore, in a falsificationist sense, show me even just one experimental test to be carried out in a laboratory in which we would be able to successfully evolve one species out of another. — alcontali

Red Delicious Apples
Dalmatians
Scottish Fold kittens
modern wheat
Lettuce
Cold Hardy Kiwi plants
etc. etc. etc.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_evolution

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_evolution — Artemis

There is still a very serious difference between:

This Chihuahua mix and Great Dane show the wide range of dog breed sizes created using artificial selection. — Producing dog breeds as an example of natural selection

versus:

All life on Earth shares a last universal common ancestor (LUCA)[10][11][12] that lived approximately 3.5–3.8 billion years ago.[13] — Wikipedia on Evolution

By analysis of the presumed LUCA's offspring groups, the LUCA appears to have been a small, single-celled organism. — Wikipedia on LUCA

Producing different dog breeds is not exactly the same as producing a dog out of a single-celled organism.

Speciation is the evolutionary process by which populations evolve to become distinct species. — Wikipedia on speciation

It has been suggested that laboratory experiments are not conducive to vicariant speciation events (allopatric and peripatric) due to their small population sizes and limited generations.[2] Most estimates from studies of nature indicate that speciation takes hundreds of thousands to millions of years.[3] — Wikpedia on laboratory speciation

Hence, it is obvious that, in terms of falsificationism, something like the LUCA theory cannot be backed by laboratory experiments. Furthermore, it looks like no speciation at all can be carried out in a laboratory. This does not necessarily mean that the LUCA theory, which clearly depends on speciation, would be wrong, but as far as I am concerned, it is merely a hypothesis.

This does not necessarily mean that the LUCA theory, which clearly depends on speciation, would be wrong, but as far as I am concerned, it is merely a hypothesis. — alcontali

It's a theory, actually.

So you accept Western psychological studies only when they suit you? And why are you asking for help to formalize your system on here? And did you know most biological fields use knowledge of huge gene mutation, and other mutations, over time as a premise?

Faith is believing in something without evidence. You believe in your religion despite the evidence. No religion on earth clearly has God's spirit. It's just stories in your head and you are arrogant to say otherwise. It's deep down just "will to power", yet you hate Nietzsche! There is such a thing as maliciousness, and it's opposite. People who kill over homo sex are the former. The system you want help with is one where gay people get the death penalty. Again, you're a moron.

Christians have managed to extract an enlightened, positive ethical system out their befuddled books. — Nobeernolife

And that I think should be recognized as the only miracle in the whole of christianity.

As is evidenced in the real world, by the progress of christian-based societies. — Nobeernolife

Christian-based societies that would not accept that the earth was not the center of the universe.
Christian-based societies that burned witches.
Christian-based societies that chased fellow christians out of their countries and forced them to go to invade the new world.
Christian-based societies that refuse to allow birth control even though the world is overflowing and the people in many places are a burden upon the society instead of the church.
Christian-based societies that made fortunes by stealing the gold from the countries they invaded.
Christian-based societies that for many years backed the use of slaves, bonded servants and even the sale of babies from the work houses poor and the orphanages.
And so on and so on etc ad infinitum.

Exactly what part of society's development did the religion have? Did their scientist create anything to improve the world? Personally I can not think of one single advance that can actually be credited to the church.

I think you should leave well-enough alone. — Nobeernolife

The only thing I can sympathize with there is your handle, cool. :cool: