Wife has a disability and we advocate.

Your point, which I would rephrase in terms of the privileged being unable to see their privilege, is central to this thread. Note how in order to engage with the topic the author of the OP had to make it about himself.

Why is wrong to preference the perspective that the majority of people have...?
— ZhouBoTong



Justice. — Banno

So I should consider it an injustice that they don't make many movies that I like anymore?

I am trying to learn when preference is just preference and when is it discrimination?

They have no idea what's going on. If I want to understand blindness would I just go to some random person who can see and tell them to explain it to me or should I actually go within the blind community? — BitconnectCarlos

I don't think I have said anything that would disagree with this, but please point it out if I did :grimace:

I would rephrase in terms of the privileged being unable to see their privilege, — Banno

I would say that I see my privilege every time I see a disabled person. But this recognition of privilege will tend to be shown as pity...which as I understand it is insulting to some people (which is confusing because if that one aspect of their life {the disability} is not deserving of pity then why am I privileged?).

You're not even trying. Come back when you want to learn.

I don't think I have said anything that would disagree with this, but please point it out if I did :grimace:

Well, good - I think that's the starting point. I think someone who is honestly ableist wouldn't really consider the viewpoints of the disabled too much; they would just view them as broken and in need of fixing. As a person who is disabled, you are essentially a problem to be solved according to ableism. This is kind of how I was treated throughout much of my childhood, at least by certain people. It was rarely made explicit, but there were times where the attitude would surface.

You're not even trying. Come back when you want to learn. — Banno

hahaha, at the very least I am putting in more effort to learn than you are to help me.

I am not particularly worried that my perspective is harmful, so if it isn't a worry for you, I think we are good here.

they would just view them as broken and in need of fixing. — BitconnectCarlos

That perspective just seems dumb and detached from reality to me, and it certainly would not have any sort of supporting argument. Sorry you ever had to deal with it...

NOW, is me saying "sorry you had to deal with that" a type of pity or a declaration that you had "problems" that I did not?...what I mean is, isn't any feeling bad on my part an acknowledgement that "those people" (sorry, using super-discriminatory language to make the point clearer) are in some way worse-off than myself? If I feel bad, it implies that I am happy I am not that way...?

@BitconnectCarlos

they would just view them as broken and in need of fixing.
— BitconnectCarlos

That perspective just seems dumb and detached from reality to me, and it certainly would not have any sort of supporting argument. Sorry you ever had to deal with it...

NOW, is me saying "sorry you had to deal with that" a type of pity or a declaration that you had "problems" that I did not?...what I mean is, isn't any feeling bad on my part an acknowledgement that "those people" (sorry, using super-discriminatory language to make the point clearer) are in some way worse-off than myself? If I feel bad, it implies that I am happy I am not that way...? — ZhouBoTong

I think I just answered half of my own question. My statement of "sorry" above should be fine because I am sorry you had to deal with discrimination. But if I said "sorry you had to deal with that disability", would that be the problem I described above? (the problem being that it is insulting to a...I was about to say "disabled person"...is that even an appropriate phrase or is calling someone disabled, ableist?)

That perspective just seems dumb and detached from reality to me, and it certainly would not have any sort of supporting argument. Sorry you ever had to deal with it...

This is actually a surprisingly common attitude, at least where I come from. People frequently talk about aborting disabled fetuses, and in the 1920s-1930s in the US they would sterilize the disabled because they viewed them as a burden or a stain on the gene pool. Obviously there's Nazi Germany. I could go on about this but I will say that it's not all with evil intentions or to this extreme.

Less severe but still shitty example of things that I have dealt with as a person who stutters:
-People advising me not to go into a profession which involves speaking to the public, or even doing much speaking in general (this advice may be well-intentioned.) According to them I should basically just spend 8 hours a day, 5 days a week behind a desk talking to no one.
-Time constraints on presentations - say 5 minutes - where I am expected to convey as much information as a fluent speaker would in that time.
-Simply not being assigned responsibilities or roles despite everyone else getting them. For instance there was once a time where my entire class was assigned a part in the school play but I was not. This could be well-intentioned.... who knows.

The main thing here is that the implication is that, as a person who stutters, I should just try to get through life without speaking or really actually socializing. Although not as bad as sterilization or death, I'd say that this does constitute ableism even if well-intentioned.

But if I said "sorry you had to deal with that disability", would that be the problem I described above?

This isn't nearly as bad as what I described above, assuming it is bad at all. I'd be okay if a friend said it, but if a stranger said it then it's a faux pas... but not really ableism. It's just an awkward thing to say, because you really don't want to reduce people to just sympathy. The subtle implication in sympathy - especially in this case - is that you consider yourself above that person. Focus on something else.

This is actually a surprisingly common attitude, at least where I come from. People frequently talk about aborting disabled fetuses, and in the 1920s-1930s in the US they would sterilize the disabled because they viewed them as a burden or a stain on the gene pool. — BitconnectCarlos

That's fair. Aren't there still countries trying to eradicate down's syndrome? (just one extreme example I remember hearing) However, that is A LOT different from "they need to be fixed"...right? That is, "we need to take every step possible to ensure people like this do not exist"...while making no effort to actually "fix" anyone?? (you do somewhat address this later in the post)

Less severe but still shitty example of things that I have dealt with as a person who stutters: — BitconnectCarlos

"less shitty" than eugenics...still pretty jacked up behavior?!?!

-People advising me not to go into a profession which involves speaking to the public, or even doing much speaking in general (this advice may be well-intentioned.) According to them I should basically just spend 8 hours a day, 5 days a week behind a desk talking to no one. — BitconnectCarlos

ugh, I can see the good intentions, but damn people. What percent of most jobs is affected if a person speaks 50% slower?? Not much, of MOST jobs, would be my thought...and you may bring something of value (luckily these days, the idea of different being good is becoming more common).

-Time constraints on presentations - say 5 minutes - where I am expected to convey as much information as a fluent speaker would in that time.
-Simply not being assigned responsibilities or roles despite everyone else getting them. For instance there was once a time where my entire class was assigned a part in the school play but I was not. This could be well-intentioned.... who knows. — BitconnectCarlos

Are you over 50? I only ask because I completed a teaching degree about 6 years ago, and they would have seriously frowned on these last two examples. And the 3rd one is super jacked up...I can NOT even see how that could be attributed to good intentions??

The main thing here is that the implication is that, as a person who stutters, I should just try to get through life without speaking or really actually socializing. Although not as bad as sterilization or death, I'd say that this does constitute ableism even if well-intentioned. — BitconnectCarlos

I think you would be surprised in schools today. It is the opposite attitude. EVERYONE can do ANYTHING. Want to be a pro athlete but have the coordination of a drunk baby giraffe? well if you put your mind to it you can accomplish anything :roll:. As much as I obviously dislike this new attitude, I can appreciate that it is a vast improvement from the attitude in play when you were in school.

It's just an awkward thing to say, because you really don't want to reduce people to just sympathy. The subtle implication in sympathy - especially in this case - is that you consider yourself above that person. Focus on something else. — BitconnectCarlos

But when I say "I feel bad" for a sick or injured person it carries no connotation of superiority...so really I just need to understand that they are viewing my words differently because of their perspective. As I said to Banno, I will make efforts to adjust my language that people find offensive, but I don't like people assuming my words mean something that they in no way say (or even imply unless you are already viewing things from that perspective). To be fair, what you have gone through is far worse than my very minor annoyance at people misunderstanding me, which is part of the reason I am willing to just change my language...if it is clear and obvious (if I am confused I am unlikely to correctly apply the changes).

Thanks for the explanations and applicable anecdotes :smile: .

Aren't there still countries trying to eradicate down's syndrome?

What happens here is that through pre-natal screening fetuses with down syndrome end up getting aborted. The rate is shockingly (95%+) in some countries.

Are you over 50?

I'll be 30 this year.

I think you would be surprised in schools today. It is the opposite attitude. EVERYONE can do ANYTHING.

I feel it's kind of like a pendulum sometimes; sometimes the attitude is super positive and other times it's pretty cynical/realistic. Maybe we'll see it swing back in the other direction more to the realistic side soon.

Thanks for the explanations and applicable anecdotes :smile: .

No problem.

The thing with pity is that men don't make friends with other men out of pity, nor do women fuck men out of pity either. It's basically just a "oh your position is pitiful and since I'm such a good person I realize that so props to you!" You need to be seriously careful with this emotion. It's fine if someone is suffering from a serious illness or if you're just saying you pity a temporary condition that someone has for maybe a week, but stuttering is just how I talk and I would be a little annoyed if a stranger came up to me and stated how they pitied me. I don't need you reminding me of my condition, nor do you score brownie points for coming up to me and expressing me how you're such a virtuous person who is good enough to feel pity.

I'll be 30 this year. — BitconnectCarlos

Dang...I was way off. I guess I am almost 40, and things were closer to how you described when I was in school. I guess I am thinking of my teacher training classes, but those are much more recent.

I feel it's kind of like a pendulum sometimes; sometimes the attitude is super positive and other times it's pretty cynical/realistic. Maybe we'll see it swing back in the other direction more to the realistic side soon. — BitconnectCarlos

Sounds right. And the current over-swing of the pendulum still beats the situations you experienced, so I find it acceptable, if occasionally annoying.

I don't need you reminding me of my condition, nor do you score brownie points for coming up to me and expressing me how you're such a virtuous person who is good enough to feel pity. — BitconnectCarlos

Well no worries there. I would have to know someone very well before I say anything beyond small talk. If i eventually say something, it is out of interest, not pity (that does not make it any more appropriate). But there is no avoiding the fact that I feel pity. But pity does not mean I think they are in any way worse or less valuable...in fact, they are more admirable, because all of their accomplishments occurred in spite of their pitiable aspect (and I am not just talking about "disabilities").

The thing with pity is that men don't make friends with other men out of pity, nor do women fuck men out of pity either. — BitconnectCarlos

I have (and continue to) done worse in both of these areas than most. I am average looking, fairly athletic, and never struggled with academics. But I am very socially awkward, which leads to a tendency to be a dick. Am I aware of it? Sometimes (arguing with disabled people about disabilities seems somewhat dick-ish). But can I do anything about it? Surely not much, as that is who I am. If someone pitied me for this I would not think they think they are a better person than me, just that they are more socially gifted. But that is just ONE aspect of what makes us people. If I pity that you have to deal with a stutter, that just means I don't have to deal with that problem, you might be better than me at everything else??