But one cannot know stuff that is not true. — Banno
Seems that both words are used the same way, and therefore mean the same thing (if meaning is just use and all that)But one cannot know stuff that is not true.
Compare:
"He is certain there is a Santa, but of course that's not true"
with
"He knows there is a Santa, but of course that's not true".
All I am doing here is pointing to how the words are used; I'm not setting out which things are true, believed or known. — Banno
Seems that both words are used the same way, — Harry Hindu
He knows there is a Santa, but of course that's not true..." — Banno
Seems that both words are used the same way... — Harry Hindu
BY not accepting this distinction Harry places himself outside the discussion. — Banno
When a person says, "I know", what do they really mean?
It seems inherent, that we assume that the other person "knows"; but, this is prone even to doubt and vagueness about using that phrase.
Therefore, how can we qualify the statement or word-phrase, "I know"?
Is this possible, and has already been implemented in our childhood and adolescent life that is education?
Or stated, otherwise, how does one set up a schema to decrease the vagueness of the word phrase "I know"? — Wallows
Compare:
"He is certain there is a Santa, but of course that's not true"
with
"He knows there is a Santa, but of course that's not true".
All I am doing here is pointing to how the words are used; I'm not setting out which things are true, believed or known. — Banno
Seems that both words are used the same way, and therefore mean the same thing (if meaning is just use and all that) — Harry Hindu
..and this is why I don't pay much attention to your posts. — Banno
And like I already said in the post your cherry-picked and failed to respond to: How can we be certain that what we know is the truth? How does anyone know that some claim is the truth? We make claims all the time about our knowledge without having any proof that what we claim is true. We only have justification for our beliefs that qualify as knowledge. Without justification, it is simply a belief. How do we determine what qualifies as proper justification? - Logic.The problem is not that they are misusing the word - of course the word might be used in that way. The problem is that they fail to take into account an important distinction. In this case, Harry ignores the distinction between believing, which can be either true or false, and knowing, which by definition must be true. — Banno
known or proved to be true : INDISPUTABLE
it is certain that we exist — Merriam-Webster
What do you mean by "use" if not that the words are occupying the same space among the same string of scribbles and in the same context? — Harry Hindu
How can we be certain that what we know is the truth? — Harry Hindu
Isn't it glorious to see all the rich varieties of side-stepping a direct question on these forums?...and here is Harry in a knutshell. Isn't it glorious to see the rich variety of thinking that is displayed in the forums?
Harry knows things that are not true. — Banno
Well, given that we know it, it follows that it is true.
But I don't think that you asked the question you meant to ask. — Banno
What I get from both Merriam-Webster's definition and the article you provided is that IF certainty and knowledge are not the same thing, then certainty is the carrier of truth, not knowledge. Certainty has a stronger quality of truth than knowledge. So you can't say that if "you know it then it is true" if you are implying that "certainty" and "knowledge" are distinct AND that certainty has a stronger connection with truth than knowledge does, according to the definition and the article. If you are certain, then it is true. If you know it, then it is justified yet you can still have doubts, or be open-minded to alternative possibilities that haven't been provided yet. True wisdom is often equated to knowing that you know nothing.Harry, have a read at this:
Certainty
Do you think that this article is adequately summed up by your Merriam-Webster definition?
What, in the article, do you find to disagree with?
Are you at all perturbed by my pointing out that on your account you know things that are not true? — Banno
The truth of it? I doubt you mean that. But what does that leave? If I say I weigh 196 pounds, that's both vague and precise, depending on how accurate one wants to be. But the claim itself, that I weigh 196 pounds, with respect to appropriate criteria is not at all ambiguous. I'm thinking you understand my question. — tim wood
Certainty is a measure of your conviction that you are right. You might be an idiot. Knowledge is presumably a rigorously arrived at belief. — Coben
It seems like you're saying that one can be certain without any reasons or evidence for what they are certain about. That isn't how I or anyone else uses the term, "certainty". Now that I know that is how you are using the term, then I am going to expect you to provide evidence because now I can't be certain that what you are "certain" of is true. To be certain means that you put forth some mental effort to parse some bit of information for logical and empirical consistency before you say that you are certain of something. To say that you "know" is to say that you have good evidence, or justification for something but there could possibly be other explanations that you aren't aware of yet. It is a way of saying that you have a set of rules for explaining or interpreting something and those rules are amendable.I am pretty sure we all know people who are certain on almost no grounds at all. But the main point is that certainty is a term referring to a feeling, a quale. Knowledge is a term refering to a belief that one decides is likely to be true due to certain criteria. Sometimes, for example, we just can't face the idea that something is not true. Sometimes we can even admit this. I am certain she is cheating on me but I have no evidence. I trust my gut. — Coben
'Reasons' they obviously have. They need it to be true, they heard from their best friend, it makes sense to them, they read it in a scientific journal, they saw it happen, they think being uncertain is weak...and so on. They are saying they have no doubt. They may have doubt. They may know deep down that they are not really certain. They may have good grounds. They may not. They make be the kind of person who trusts their intuition (and shouldn't). Some people are just certain in general. Some are certain when they have good evidence. It varies subject to subject. When someone is certain this does not indicate anything about epistemology, theirs or in general. It's a mental state or a measure of one. It measure a lack of doubt or the presentation of that. Of course each person will likely think that their certainty is based on good reasons, but that is not what they are saying when they use the term.It seems like you're saying that one can be certain without any reasons or evidence for what they are certain about. — Harry Hindu
Oh, yes it is. They just don't use it that way when describing themselves. But they do when describing others. And I am saying what the term is referring to. It is referring to an emotional state.That isn't how I or anyone else uses the term, "certainty" — Harry Hindu
To be certain means that you put forth some mental effort to parse some bit of information for logical and empirical consistency before you say that you are certain of something. — Harry Hindu
For someone who is so vehemently trying to correct another person on their alleged improper “word usage” — Alcyone7
I'm sorry. You're going to have to take this up with the professors at MIT who taught me what I regurgitated. I am just an accurate regurgitating machine for my expensive and prestigious education.you’re wrong. In every single sentence, the information you’ve conveyed is completely incorrect! — Alcyone7
You’re defeating your own argument Douglas. I can certainly sense some accuracy in that last sentence though! — Alcyone7
Wait, I thought that:I wonder if folk just have a hard time accepting how bare being true is. It's this bareness, this lack of anything more, that is shown by the T-sentence.
If you believe something, then you believe that it is true. You can't belief it and yet think it false. — Banno
So which is it? Does knowing it or believing it make it true, and where does certainty fall? Is it possible to believe or know something that isn't true? If not, then why do humans frequently make the "mistake" of stating that they believe or know something and then find out later that it wasn't true? Why do we often find out after making the claim whether or not our knowledge was true or not? Maybe we were getting ahead of our selves and claim to possess knowledge when we didn't have proper justification. That may be the problem - that most people use "know" to casually - often meaning a belief or hypothesis rather than real knowledge. When someone claims to know something, is their knowledge evidence, or proof, that their claim is true? Is their claim that they have knowledge evidence, or proof, that they possess knowledge? Do you possess knowledge just by claiming that you do?Well, given that we know it, it follows that it is true. — Banno
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.