Bernie Sanders

Mikie

So there's now too many opinion pieces to count which are essentially trashing Sanders, with a handful coming to his defense. I'm glad to see the coverage, but the negative-to-positive ratio is striking (and predictable). There are still so many anxious people and nay-sayers, all over the media and even within this forum. So here's one brief argument for why everyone on the fence should join in.

We can all agree that:

1) Americans are tired of being saddled by debt.
2) They're tired of carrying student loans that never go away.
3) They're tired of having to use credit cards for emergencies and going bankrupt for health expenses even when they have insurance.
4) They're tired of working increasingly precarious jobs with stagnant wages that don't cover the cost of a decent life.
5) They recognize that the economy is rigged for the wealthiest people.

Given the historical decline in the quality of life in the neoliberal era, capped by a huge recession -- they have continually elected candidates who have promised to change it all. Obama promised it on the "left." Trump promised it on the right. And...nothing has changed. As usual. The two major legislative achievements, respectively: Obamacare and corporate tax cuts.

Bernie, in contrast, is in a league of his own, farther left than Clinton or Obama and touting the "socialist" label boldly and proudly. He comes directly out of the Occupy movement as Trump came out of the Tea Party movement. The parallels are remarkable, but the difference is that he's the real deal and Trump is a charlatan (which was obvious from the beginning -- at least for anyone not getting their opinions from Fox News and Rush Limbaugh).

So this is the only option left. It's the one that hasn't been tried. It should have been tried in 2016 but wasn't. Why? The answer is worth keeping in mind.

The answer is because the DNC and moderates were supposedly concerned with electability. When Clinton won the nomination, they declared (despite the clear intervention in her favor) that Sanders' support just "wasn't there" and that we must "listen to the will of the people -- Hillary won fair and square." She lost the election, of course.

Which brings us to the present. Now Sanders has the votes, and what are the same people saying? "He's not electable -- let's ignore the people." But this time it's only them that should be ignored.

Let's not make the same mistake again. Bernie has the potential to be the next FDR, but only if we start changing our minds.

All of that said, in closing, here's something from Mr. Dylan for those centrists and moderates still doubtful, nervous, and hesitant:

"Your old road is rapidly aging. Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand."

Relativist

this is the only option left. It's the one that hasn't been tried. — Xtrix

Do you honestly think Sanders will be able to fulfill his promises, or is that beside the point - i.e. you just want someone with the right set of concerns?

Mikie

this is the only option left. It's the one that hasn't been tried.
— Xtrix
Do you honestly think Sanders will be able to fulfill his promises, or is that beside the point - i.e. you just want someone with the right set of concerns? — Relativist

It will be an uphill battle without the Senate and state legislators. The establishment media will probably continue to attack on all fronts, etc. So no, I don't think every aspect of the agenda will be implemented. And that's too bad, as it would be good for the country right now.

So you're right, it is beside the point to a degree. But on the other hand, there's plenty he WILL be able to achieve with just executive orders alone. He'll have the pulpit to discuss things with the American public, it'll create much-needed debate over policies that matter, etc.

There's simply no alternative at this point. Trump isn't even a consideration for any rational human being.

Pfhorrest

Do you honestly think Sanders will be able to fulfill his promises, or is that beside the point - i.e. you just want someone with the right set of concerns? — Relativist

That's my take. The president alone doesn't, and shouldn't, have the power to make changes like this themselves. So legislative and judicial seats are ultimately way more people than the presidency. But the president sets the agenda for their entire party, so having a president like Bernie being in charge is a useful first step toward change in the right direction.

Artemis

Do you honestly think Sanders will be able to fulfill his promises, or is that beside the point - i.e. you just want someone with the right set of concerns — Relativist

Bernie already has opened the door for a whole new set of ideas and talking points and politicians to enter the field. Even if he can't do as much as we hope he might, he's paving the way for change.

2016 he was the only one suggesting taxing the wealthy and socializing healthcare. Now we've got almost all the dems running agreeing with the basics of both those ideas. And look at the new politicians like AOC.

For decades we've been told to be more "moderate" with our positions and politicians, because the repubs won't like us otherwise and that has very simply backfired. Big time.

Relativist

↪Xtrix

↪Pfhorrest

↪Artemis

Suppose, for the sake of argument, Bernie is unelectable. Would you agree that would be a good reason to nominate someone who IS electable? My point is that you need to consider the consequences of your choice - and it's possible that your choice will result in 4 more years of Trump.

Mikie

Suppose, for the sake of argument, Bernie is unelectable. Would you agree that would be a good reason to nominate someone who IS electable? My point is that you need to consider the consequences of your choice - and it's possible that your choice will result in 4 more years of Trump. — Relativist

That's a fair point. If Bernie were unelectable, my own opinion is that I would put up someone who could beat Trump instead, if it were guaranteed. I'm not 100% on that, however. There's arguments that can be made.

But the fact is, Sanders looks pretty good in a match-up against Trump. It's true that Biden was polling better in some key states, but he was polling better nationally too not long ago and has taken a huge dive. A lot of that was simple name recognition and association with Obama.

Since we don't have a magic ball, and since the only evidence we have looks good -- there's simply no reason not to nominate the best candidate. Especially if you add to the mix the chance that NOT nominating him could be a more likely disaster for the Democrats.

Mikie

↪Artemis

That's a very important point. I've been trying to make this point as well. It bears repeating over and over again. In many ways, he's already won - in this respect.

Mikie

But the president sets the agenda for their entire party, so having a president like Bernie being in charge is a useful first step toward change in the right direction. — Pfhorrest

Exactly -- assuming the democrats don't take the Senate. Then again, even if they DO it may still be hard to pass anything, given the moderate vote.

Artemis

Suppose, for the sake of argument, Bernie is unelectable. Would you agree that would be a good reason to nominate someone who IS electable? My point is that you need to consider the consequences of your choice - and it's possible that your choice will result in 4 more years of Trump. — Relativist

I will vote for whoever is not Trump in the end. And if the American people, including some so-called moderate dems, would rather vote for Trump over Bernie, I guess America gets what it deserves.

But we simply can't keep pushing these corporate Dinos who keep slowly turning America into a Third World country. It's not sustainable.

ZhouBoTong

Suppose, for the sake of argument, Bernie is unelectable. — Relativist

Well everyone keeps supposing that...when is someone actually going to make the argument? Why is he unelectable?

Would you agree that would be a good reason to nominate someone who IS electable? — Relativist

What makes them (who?) more electable than Bernie?

My point is that you need to consider the consequences of your choice - and it's possible that your choice will result in 4 more years of Trump. — Relativist

I thought it was clear that if Dems show up in significant numbers and all vote for the same person, they will beat trump. So are you saying some of the Dems won't show up at the polls, or they will show but will vote trump, if Bernie is nominated? That would make them Super-hypocrites after all the crap they gave the Bernie bros last time.

Surely if Bernie is just dismissed again, that will hurt the Democrat vote as well?

ZhouBoTong

I will vote for whoever is not Trump in the end. And if the American people, including some so-called moderate dems, would rather vote for Trump over Bernie, I guess America gets what it deserves.

But we simply can't keep pushing these corporate Dinos — Artemis

Perfect :up:

Wayfarer

Why is he unelectable? — ZhouBoTong

America has drifted right over the last few decades, mainly because of corporate manipulation of the media (think: Fox. Reagan would be dismissed as 'liberal' by a lot of current Republicans.) So Bernie Sanders, who wants free public health care and higher education, the forgiveness of student loans, and paying for all of this by taxing wealthy corporations, is going to be mercilessly skewered as communist and 'anti-growth' by the Republicans. It's not true, but one of the sad facts about Trumpworld is that facts don't matter. .

Don't forget, the 'Affordable Care Act' was described as communist by the right. It's far less ambitious than Sander's plan.

It's worth reading this cnn story https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/24/politics/bernie-sanders-donald-trump-2020/index.html

which features this quote:

Experts estimate that Sanders' major proposals would cost a staggering $60 trillion and would double the size of the government (while his tax plans fall $27 trillion short of paying for it). There's a reason that, when pressed on the cost of his plans, Sanders simply refuses to answer, saying he actually has no idea and 'no one does.

And that's from a Democratic think tank!

Bernie Sanders is openly calling for a political revolution. For those who believe him, it's exhilarating, but it's not going to win over the political center.

If Ralph Nader hadn't run against Gore, America wouldn't have had W.

Judaka

↪Xtrix

Most Western countries have seen the problems Sanders is talking about and addressed them or at least are in the process of addressing them, America is lagging behind in so many regards and something should change.

My only concern with Sanders comes less with him and rather the people and movement he aligns himself with. The far left in America seems just as concerned with practical changes as they are with their various hateful ideologies. He's been mixed with BLM, The young turks, Alexandra ocasio-cortez and other far left-wing, ridiculous people/organisations. Instead of just being a reasonable, humanistic candidate with a belief in furthering economic redistribution. Throwing around the term of "democratic socialism" doesn't really help either.

The other criticism seems to be that his promises, much like what Trump offers, are just good-sounding (to the supporters) ideas with no real substance. Sanders doesn't know exactly what things cost or how to pay for it in ways which should actually get passed legislatively.

I really like Andrew Yang as a candidate but doesn't seem like there's much of a shot for him.

NOS4A2

↪Xtrix

All Bernie has ever been is a politician. What has he ever built? What has he ever ran? What has he ever done? We’re going to put a man like that in charge of the world’s greatest economy and military. That’s something people will have to contend with.

Benkei

↪NOS4A2

Yeah, let's put a construction worker into power!

NOS4A2

↪Benkei

Would rather a construction worker than another lawyer.

Tzeentch

From a non-American perspective, Bernie Sanders is the only candidate I've seen in a long while that doesn't make the impression of being utterly corrupt. Perhaps that's why, despite his popularity, he's met with so much resistance.

Benkei

↪NOS4A2

Missing the point as usual. Your criterion was ridiculous.

From a non-American perspective, Bernie Sanders is the only candidate I've seen in a long while that doesn't make the impression of being utterly corrupt. Perhaps that's why, despite his popularity, he's met with so much resistance. — Tzeentch

This and since we're not constrained by the ridiculous inward-focused MSM in the USA we're actually aware of different possibilities for social and political organisation. Sanders is broadening the political landscape allowing for more diverse views to be at least debated and discussed. That at the very least is progress.

Baden

↪Benkei

I put together an IKEA bunk bed the other day. Bet Bernie couldn't do that. Vote for me!

Wheatley

(All General Sanders Conversations Here)

Frank Apisa

↪Xtrix

It is past time for everyone who wants to push the "Bernie cannot win and will hurt the down ticket" meme...to get the hell out of the way.

Trump absolutely HAS TO BE DEFEATED...and if Bernie is the guy the Democrats select, HE MUST BE THE GUY WHO DEFEATS HIM.

I was such a person. During the last election...and up until just a few weeks ago, I was an "Anyone but Bernie" person.

Things can change quickly, but if Bernie continues down the path he is on, he will be the nominee...and I will support him with every ounce of strength I can muster.

I hope all of you out there can, too.

3017amen

What has he ever built? What has he ever ran? What has he ever done? — NOS4A2

Dumpertrumper,

I think your dad filed for bankruptcy numerous times. And he was found guilty of defrauding people from his fake University, that also went defunkt.

Put in another quarter and try again. LOL

Relativist

All Bernie has ever been is a politician. What has he ever built? What has he ever ran? What has he ever done? We’re going to put a man like that in charge of the world’s greatest economy and military. That’s something people will have to contend with. — NOS4A2

The one quality that is needed in a President is good judgment. Regardless of background, our job as voters is to discern whether or not a candidate indeed has good judgment. No specific background (CEO, college professor, politician, reality TV star...) establishes that the candidate has good judgment, nor does it establish he has poor judgment.

Artemis

All Bernie has ever been is a politician. What has he ever built? What has he ever ran? What has he ever done? We’re going to put a man like that in charge of the world’s greatest economy and military. That’s something people will have to contend with — NOS4A2

Only in politics do we suggest extensive experience doing the job somehow makes you less able to do the job than someone with no experience.

Well... Maybe the same prejudice happens with teachers, too.

NOS4A2

↪Artemis

Only in politics do we suggest extensive experience doing the job somehow makes you less able to do the job than someone with no experience.

Well... Maybe the same prejudice happens with teachers, too.

A little activism, a little voting in the senate. He certainly has enough experience making a living off the tax-payer dollar, but not much else.

Artemis

A little activism, a little voting in the senate. He certainly has enough experience making a living off the tax-payer dollar, but not much else. — NOS4A2

I don't think you have a very good grasp on what politicians do all day...

NOS4A2

↪Artemis

I don't think you have a very good grasp on what politicians do all day...

You understand the day-to-day of a US senator? I’d love to hear about it if you wish to correct me.

Benkei

↪NOS4A2

You don't need a good grasp to understand that this

A little activism, a little voting in the senate. He certainly has enough experience making a living off the tax-payer dollar, but not much else. — NOS4A2

is a mischaracterisation. Why don't you prove this is the case with your apparent in depth understanding of what senators do, which level of knowledge you expect from others?

creativesoul

There are certain pieces of legislation that have led to the current wealth gap and all of the problems most everyone agrees on.

Guess who fought hard against them at the time, sometimes being the only nay?

That is the kind of person needed.

NOS4A2

↪Benkei

is a mischaracterisation. Why don't you prove this is the case with your apparent in depth understanding of what senators do, which level of knowledge you expect from others?

Was Bernie an activist? Yes. Is Bernie a Senator? Yes. How is that a mischaracterization?

Bernie Sanders

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