But in true American form, Americans really don't care what the world thinks about them. — Hanover

Very true...very.

It's true, but I think it's hard for many not to use this crisis to call into question Trump, capitalism, autonomy, and other Americanisms to show it's somehow a failed system. — Hanover

No one is throwing all the deaths at capitalism's feet, anticapitalist; specifically anti-austerity; criticism which has been going on (in Europe too, even in countries with universal healthcare) is all just saying that the kind of welfare system investment strategy that diminishes access as compared to effective universal healthcare amplifies the knock on effects of the virus by reducing how prepared hospitals could be, and how short sighted postponing quarantine measures (among other things, like too little testing) was by the administrations that chose to take that route.

The anticapitalist generalisation is just that this is business as usual when organising investment based on return on investment than the public good, and favouring the short term concerns of the economy versus longer term concerns and the public good.

So 13 people have died out of 72 old folks in this one care home. — unenlightened

26 out of 65 here:

https://www.rcinet.ca/en/2020/04/07/pinecrest-nursing-home-the-logistics-involved-in-horror-are-revealed/

You are going to give a plausible explanation for an 18% death rate. — unenlightened

I can give you the centrist/conservative line on this if you like.

Well no investment strategy in healthcare could possibly have provided for everyone in every old person's home. The 18% death rate is much higher than the one observed under effective treatment because resources were rightly prioritised to hospitals to deal with the worst cases. It's unfair to think of this as some grand conspiracy to kill people simply because we didn't know enough about the disease in time and we didn't know it was coming. A pandemic is impossible to plan for, the healthcare system will always be overloaded in those circumstances.

It's so easy to start thinking with my gut and be sane.

So 13 people have died out of 72 old folks in this one care home.
— unenlightened

26 out of 65 here: — Metaphysician Undercover

we know the overwhelming majority of COVID-19 deaths occur in patients that are already suffering from a number of other conditions. In Italy, for example, data shows 99 percent of COVID-19 deaths occurred in patients who had at least one other condition. More than 48 percent had three other conditions. Similar cases in the US are now likely to be routinely reported simply as COVID-19 cases.

https://mises.org/wire/march-us-deaths-covid-19-totaled-less-2-percent-all-deaths

Makes sense to me.

But in true American form, Americans really don't care what the world thinks about them. — Hanover

And in true non-American form, we don't care that you don't care what we think about you. We're going to tell you anyway.

Ok, your turn.

No one is throwing all the deaths at capitalism's feet, anticapitalist; specifically anti-austerity; criticism which has been going on (in Europe too, even in countries with universal healthcare) is all just saying that the kind of welfare system investment strategy that diminishes access as compared to effective universal healthcare amplifies the knock on effects of the virus by reducing how prepared hospitals could be, and how short sighted postponing quarantine measures (among other things, like too little testing) was by the administrations that chose to take that route.

The anticapitalist generalisation is just that this is business as usual when organising investment based on return on investment than the public good, and favouring the short term concerns of the economy versus longer term concerns and the public good — fdrake

I just don't see that this has much to do the economic system or health care system as much as it has to do with individual leadership style and decisions made by certain personalities.

The UK appears to be overlooking their most vulnerable despite having nationalized healthcare. The Swedes seem to think laissez faire is the way to go despite being staunchly socialist. GW Bush is credited for creating a national response program to pandemics despite being whatever the hell be was.

Whatever problems the US may have, I don't think they were exposed or made more evident by this crisis. The US numbers are better than many and fared pretty well comparatively. I don't give it a pass for any errors, but it's reponse hardly gives concern that anything systemic needs changing other than a laying out a specific protocol that should be followed for future similar events.

Makes sense to me. — Merkwurdichliebe

It might make sense to you, but for that virus to spread through a nursing home and kill more than a third of the residents in just two weeks time, is quite incredible no matter how you choose to look at it.

And in true non-American form, we don't care that you don't care what we think about you. We're going to tell you anyway.

Ok, your turn. — Baden

But you do care, else there'd be far less discussion of Trump and far more discussion of the Irish leader whoever that is.

Your turn.

If only the UK had universal public healthcare we wouldn't be seeing such things. — Hanover

Bug. Not feature. Want to know who the bugs are?

Whatever problems the US may have, I don't think they were exposed or made more evident by this crisis. — Hanover

Have you looked?

Seriously, "test, isolate, treat" is the maxim for dealing with a pandemic. Having a healthcare system which makes people avoid those measures on pain of bankruptcy or being unable to eat for a week is absolutely insane, and I have no idea how you could think of this as anything but a catastrophic design problem; read, a systemic issue.

Edit: even staunch proponents of this incredibly stupid state of affairs realised it was stupid and instituted Medicaid for all (effectively) to address the problem. Let's hope it stays that way.

lost my job completely today because financial aid for my employer didn’t materialize in time.

Inconclusive facts half truths are very dangerous to an uninformed and under educated populous. If there is any lesson to be learned from this forged crisis is not to jump to conclusions about what the media is presenting you as so called facts... This society has lost all faith and wisdom. We have faced countless pathogens bacteria and viruses in the past. Never have ive seen such ignorance and panic in all of my 39 years of being on this planet...

It might make sense to you, but for that virus to spread through a nursing home and kill more than a third of the residents in just two weeks time, is quite incredible no matter how you choose to look at it. — Metaphysician Undercover

I agree. It is incredible. There is a lot of incredible fuckery going on in the world right now.

Never have seen such ignorance and panic in all of my 39 years of being on this planet... — BeastdarityBarbarianProphet

Well, you're still relatively young, give it time.

I’m sorry to hear, friend. Times are bleak, many are in the same boat. I know that’s no consolation but you are not alone. Godspeed.

Thanks.

I think I’ll post this again. Clearly some people missed it the first time around:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gxAaO2rsdIs

Note: Pay attention to the section that gets infected and the section that doesn’t get infected. Slowly the spread brings the virus to a halt. I think what some people are asking above is how low the number infected can be kept - last I heard Fauci said between 50-75% infected (which is better than 100%). Clearly the sooner preventative measures are put in place the less people get infected. ALSO if you watch the video all the way through you’ll see the chaotic nature of this and the risk of lifting measures too soon - which would basically make most of the lockdown measures a complete waste of time. It’s playing roulette to some degree, the best preventative measures are no guarantee when dealing with chaotic systems. The difficulty is in deciding where to draw the line given the huge margins of error involved (if anyone ‘gets it right’ it will be due, in part, to pure luck).

Here’s something else tangental to consider: https://smallcaps.com.au/coronavirus-could-speed-up-introduction-cashless-society/

Whatever problems the US may have, I don't think they were exposed or made more evident by this crisis. The US numbers are better than many and fared pretty well comparatively. I don't give it a pass for any errors, but it's reponse hardly gives concern that anything systemic needs changing other than a laying out a specific protocol that should be followed for future similar events. — Hanover

It really is too early to tell how countries did because policy who to test carry rather wildly. The Netherlands only tests severe cases, healthcare workers and people who died. Our deaths is a very accurate figure, but our infected isn't. The latter is probably similar to Germany's.

The only country I suspect has really accurate data is South Korea.

What about Vietnam?

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/3079598/coronavirus-whats-behind-vietnams-containment-success?fbclid=IwAR2irzKkJaJkaLgOSi9VU6UQ1nVajeyozkxtiHN5qf2GyfClHDAfENbXxY4

My understanding of the social distancing concept is that it is to level out the curve of infections so as to be sure there is adequate healthcare (especially with regard to there being sufficient ventilators) to treat the curable. — Hanover

That's one goal, but not the only one...

Social distancing obviously will slow the spread of the disease, but I really don't think we can expect it to reduce the overall occurrence given sufficient time unless you're committed to removing the most vulnerable from the population long enough to find a vaccine (a year?). — Hanover

With the suppression (or hammer) strategy, the goal is to get the epidemic under control as quickly as possible. That is, for the number of new cases to be reduced to close to zero and for comprehensive testing and contact tracing to be in place to isolate those cases. Then people can essentially return to life as normal with just some measures retained such as border control checks and limits on large gatherings. See, for example, China and South Korea (albeit tentatively - we'll see how it goes). Australia and New Zealand, among other countries, may soon be there as well.

Consider an analogy with forest fires. As long as there are proper safeguards and monitoring in place for small local fires, large uncontrolled fires need not break out. Of course if they do break out, then suppression is needed again.

"Although I suspect that Johnson has had a Damascene conversion following his own infection."
— Punshhh

Any reason for your uncharacteristic optimism?

If you listen to Johnson's speeches after he returned from hospital he sounds different, there could be a decent fellow inside, which has come to the surface while he stared death in the face. He accepts that his life was in the hands of some immigrant nurses and he has seen the good work the NHS does from the inside. I might be wrong, let's see what he does when he returns to the fray. He really should kick out Raab and Patel, who are actively hostile to the NHS ( and a lot else besides). If he goes back to business as usual, he really will cement his reputation for being a hypocrite.

It's true, but I think it's hard for many not to use this crisis to call into question Trump, capitalism, autonomy, and other Americanisms to show it's somehow a failed system. — Hanover

People can question government policies, outsourcing, just-on-time logistics and the absence strategic reserves or the health care policies without them referring to the American discourse. As the problems and the discussion is the same as in the States, you might think otherwise. But of course now as the US is at the present epicenter of the pandemic, it's no wonder that the discussion is focused on you.

But in true American form, Americans really don't care what the world thinks about them. — Hanover

You just assume foreigners hate the US, I guess. In true American form, can there be any other discourse than the American one?

Hang on in there, the economy should bounce back once the virus is under control.

Thanks. Provided the extended unemployment benefits actually come through, I can basically treat the time from now through the end of July as an extended "summer staycation" financially, and barely lose anything. Hopefully by then things will be back to normal, and my job will re-materialize. The boss definitely wants me back, so much that he's letting me hang on to my work computer (I telecommute anyway).

Some hard figures (update coming today too) about the underlying causes of death for ALL deaths this year in the UK up to April 3:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=%2fpeoplepopulationandcommunity%2fbirthsdeathsandmarriages%2fdeaths%2fdatasets%2fweeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales%2f2020/referencetablesweek14202013042020165839.xlsx

Note: They’ve been careful to note death where Covid was mentioned AND where Covid corresponds to respiratory failure resulting in death (there is no attempt to exaggerate the figures).

Have you looked?

Seriously, "test, isolate, treat" is the maxim for dealing with a pandemic. Having a healthcare system which makes people avoid those measures on pain of bankruptcy or being unable to eat for a week is absolutely insane, and I have no idea how you could think of this as anything but a catastrophic design problem; read, a systemic issue. — fdrake

I have looked. The death tolls in France, Italy, Spain, and the UK are much higher per capita than the US, despite them having the healthcare systems you believe will result in lower death tolls. Americans requiring healthcare cannot be denied healthcare. It's the law. You simply don't have any data to support that the American situation has been caused by or is aggravated by its brand of healthcare.

I dunno what to tell you. If you don't deny that "test, isolate, treat" when consistently applied has demonstrably lead to bankruptcy in the US and not other countries, or that the healthcare system required a policy hotfix towards something much closer to free (at least more affordable) universal healthcare to address the issue by your administration. The US administration acknowledged the systemic issue and took a measure to rectify it. Let's hope it does not get repealed.

But of course now as the US is at the present epicenter of the pandemic, it's no wonder that the discussion is focused on you. — ssu

The epicenter remains the path from Spain, France, and Italy, with numbers far worse than what the US is reporting. In fact, the US pandemic is largely limited to a few areas, primarily New York and some surrounding areas. I'm in Atlanta, and saying that I'm at the epicenter is a bit of a stretch, considering my experience is dramatically different from Manhattan. As I watched Italian reports, it seems that country is truly in a state of devastation, but that's really not the experience where I am. Maybe New York can be said to be a hotspot right now, but whether that's going to spread like wildfire across the US seems unlikely.