Watching it now but without watching it I already now pharma is not to be trusted. — Benkei

None of it should be trusted. Not big pharma, not government, not mass media, not the church, &c, &c. They all should be groveling at our feet to prove their trustworthiness. But they have a record of doing nearly everything to shatter our trust followed by excuse after excuse for why we should continue trusting them. The big question is why there are so many people that continue to so easily trust all the obvious bullshit after endless betrayal?

None of it should be trusted. Not big pharma, not government, not mass media, not the church, &c, &c. — Merkwurdichliebe

Maybe neither should ↑ this

Maybe neither should ↑ this — jorndoe

Why are you so quick to defend big pharma. Does your grandmother receive her pension from them?

Why are you so quick to defend big pharma. Does your grandmother receive her pension from them? — Merkwurdichliebe

Who said I am? Just pointing the childish generalization at itself. :D

Which of the two? I think they're both pretty strong, but in the case of the AIDS video, it's almost like the reporters managed to find the smoking gun.

The FDA has a questionable history of its own. It would be foolish to think it is a reliable source of protection against possible malfeasance by big pharma. After all, there is no question that the big pharma lobby is capable of influencing the presidential appointment of FDA officials. Don't be so certain that the FDA doesn't have greater interests that far outweigh the health concerns of American citizens.

In a conversation about the relative ethical standards of the pharmaceutical industry to other industries, the FDA isn't evaluated against how good it might have been, it's evaluated against other (lobbyist prone) agencies and against no regulation whatsoever (in certain industries).

I've pointed out before in this thread this is just a heuristic with little value as an actual argument in specific cases.

Who said I am? — jorndoe

You insinuated you were. :joke:

the aids doc. Incredible stuff there

In a conversation about the relative ethical standards of the pharmaceutical industry to other industries, the FDA isn't evaluated against how good it might have been, it's evaluated against other (lobbyist prone) agencies and against no regulation whatsoever (in certain industries). — LuckyR

Not a very high standard. But fair point.

I've pointed out before in this thread this is just a heuristic with little value as an actual argument in specific cases. — Benkei

Obviously. This is tpf. But it is always fun to generalize. I just have a hard time trusting any of those classic institutions of oppression. The slightest critique reveals just how mendacious they can be. What has big pharma done to earn your non-critical trust?

I just have a hard time trusting any of those classic institutions of oppression. — Merkwurdichliebe

I think you've probably been trusting the FDA all your life. How many medications are you on right now?

I think you've probably been trusting the FDA all your life. How many medications are you on right now? — frank

Rhetorical question :wink: Probably. Even to this day. However, they have have certains ways of doing things that seem trustworthy, and those that are suspect...for example, the full approval process versus emergency use authorization for vaccines.

Rhetorical question :wink: Probably. Even to this day. However, they have have certains ways of doing things that seem trustworthy, and those that are suspect...for example, the full approval process versus emergency use authorization for vaccines. — Merkwurdichliebe

They actually did go through the whole standard testing procedure. What was sped up was the paperwork part, which sometimes takes years. Still, this was a radically new technology. It goes in and makes your own cells create features of a lethal virus. I joked to myself when I took it that this is how zombie apocalypses start. I was a little nervous, but I took it because I had spent the previous year planning how I would spend my last functional days if I got covid. I was making little videos of family and friends doing normal things, planning to watch it at the end.

They actually did go through the whole standard testing procedure. — frank

FDA Takes Key Action in Fight Against COVID-19 By Issuing Emergency Use Authorization for First COVID-19 Vaccine — fda.org

An EUA is most definitely not the same as the the normal full approval process.

An EUA is most definitely not the same as the the normal full approval process. — Merkwurdichliebe

The FDA's approval process is mostly paperwork. All the vaccines went through the standard 3 phase clinical trials. These phases check for safety and efficacy. The clinical trials were the reason it took so long to get the vaccine to the population. The actual vaccine was produced in a couple of weeks. That's one of the advantages of the new technology.

The FDA's approval process is mostly paperwork. — frank

Yes, it's mostly paperwork, except for the majority of the process that isn't paperwork. You really think they are spending 8 years on "mostly paperwork" to approve vaccines?

From Yalemedicine.org:

"According to one study, over the past decade, the FDA approved 21 vaccines, mostly for flu or meningococcus. The median clinical development period (meaning from a Phase I trial to approval) was just over 8 years, including a median FDA review period of about a year. 

"For comparison, the COVID-19 vaccine from Pfizer-BioNTech, which was the first to receive an EUA, was under clinical development for six months before it submitted its EUA. An EUA was granted in less than a month; full approval was issued eight months later."

The quote from Yalemedicine is not in disagreement with what I said.

The quote from Yalemedicine is not in disagreement with what I said. — frank

Compared to the usual 8 or so years it takes for fda vaccine approval, it took virtually no time to release the covid vaccine to the public - 15 months according to the study. I'm no mathematician, but that is over a 6.5 year difference. But im sure it went through all the rigor of normal testing to ensure its safety for public use.

But im sure it went through all the rigor of normal testing to ensure its safety for public use. — Merkwurdichliebe

:up:

my apologies, my math was off.

The 8 years is not the median duration for the full approval process, but only for phase I of the clinical development. In the full approval process it takes another 3-7 years to clear phases II &III.

I'm no mathematician, but according to my calculations, that amounts to 11-15 years for required clinical development. But im sure my math is off here as well. Ive read it can take anywhere from 5 to 17 years.

Covid vaccine went through all three phases in only six months. That has to be the world record.

The 8 years is not the median duration for the full approval process, but only for phase I of the clinical development. — Merkwurdichliebe

Phase 1 takes a few months.

You know, you have a right to refuse any kind of medical intervention. It's a federal law. :cool:

You know, you have a right to refuse any kind of medical intervention. It's a federal law. :cool: — frank

Join the big experiment or let your children starve. It's not the easiest choice to make when your job is on the line because of a mandate from your employer. But yes, you do have the right. Its pretty cool

I think everyone who didn't want to get vaccinated just got a religious exemption. Of course there were those who just decided to let their children starve. So sad.

Phase 1 takes a few months. — frank

Let's say it takes 2 years for the full process of clinical development of a drug. That is still a lot more than the six months it took for the covid vaccine to clear clinical development. The polio vaccine took 20 years to clear.

According to one study, over the past decade, the FDA approved 21 vaccines, mostly for flu or meningococcus. The median clinical development period (meaning from a Phase I trial to approval) was just over 8 years, including a median FDA review period of about a year. — Merkwurdichliebe

Of course there were those who just decided to let their children starve. So sad. — frank

:rofl: sorry for the insensitivity. You just have a comical way of saying things

I think everyone who didn't want to get vaccinated just got a religious exemption. — frank

Conscientious objectors. I am torn over them. I admire the objector, but I loathe the conscientious

I admire the objector, but I loath the conscientious — Merkwurdichliebe

Just leave your shoes untied.

Just leave your shoes untied — frank

:rofl: The nonconcientious objector would deeply oppose the fact that they were untied, but refuse to do anything to rectify it. I would trip

The nonconcientious objector would deeply oppose the fact that they were untied, but refuse to do anything to rectify it. I would trip — Merkwurdichliebe

Don't do that. Leave your hair uncoiffed.