• finob
    1
    Hey Guys, this is my first post here - I wanted an outlet for my thoughts to be openly critiqued and challenged - posted below are my thoughts on language, existence, and the arbitrariness of objects. While I appreciate references to philosophers, I would really appreciate if you would also describe what they have to say about my theories themselves. Finally, thank you for taking the time to read my post, and enjoy!

    Without a perceiving and experiencing body, the boundaries between individual objects disappear. For instance, my sense of touch allows me to perceive a table as a physical object distinct from its surrounding, since the material sensation of feeling that table feels different from the air around it. Similarly, if my only sense was a sense of smell my perception of the world would be purely of different scents, and without a sense of touch or sight the idea of “direction” would not exist – I would only be able to individuate or draw boundaries around certain smells and mark them as distinct from one another.

    However, it is clear to see that these boundaries marked by our perception are not absolute, but instead arbitrary products of our perception. There is no “actual” such thing as a table in terms of absolute, physical terms: all physical objects are simply an arrangement of atoms/quarks, and the individuating of the object occurs when an individual perceives an arbitrary collection of these quantum objects as a distinct thing in and of itself. I will illustrate this point with a brief thought experiment.

    What is this an image of?

    GettyImages-637563258_web.jpg

    It appears fairly obvious that pictured here are an apple and an orange. But consider this: a term used to describe specifically an apple and an orange together – an applorange. This new conception may appear fairly ridiculous at first and you may say that it is indeed not and applorange because I’ve just made it up, but the creation of this concept in my mind is one just as arbitrary as any object inn any mind – in the same way that the object on the right to you is “obviously” an apple, the conception of these two things together can just as obviously be an applorange to me. Furthermore, in disagreements about whether this thing is indeed an applorange or simply an apple and an orange the arbitrariness of these boundaries become even more apparent: neither side has the authority to say that their individuation of these boundaries are the “correct” one, because they are both truthfully perceiving the above image in the way that they describe it. The applorange did not exist before we conceptualised it, and in the same way if there were no perceiving beings, the boundaries surrounding commonly understood terms such as “trees” and “books” are completely dissolved and the individuation of the “tree” and the “book”, along with their existence itself, ceases to exist.

    So far, I have explored the abstract way in which these physical objects are individuated. However, it is now a short leap to conclude that the boundaries around any concept, even abstract ones such as happiness or existence itself are just as groundless and subjective.

    Our understanding of what it means to be, and what it means to exist are coloured by our perception of things: most basically, perhaps, by the simple observation of presence and absence which is the most basic foundation of perception – something is perceived, and it is present, and when it is not perceived, it is absent. But isn’t the perception of presence and absence as arbitrary as the things which are present and absent? The fact that my individuation of something as a distinct “thing” is completely arbitrary, means that the “presence” or “absence” of that thing is already a moot point: that “thing” as an individual concept does not exist outside of my perception to be present or absent in the first place.

    Thus, even the idea that something can be is not a fact of the universe. If beings did not perceive, then there would not be a conception of what it means to be, and it would in fact be false to say that anything exists, absolutely, outside of any perceiving being.
  • Streetlight
    9.1k
    Welcome to the forum and great first post! In some sense you're entirely right - you can cut up the world any which way you please, and no will be able to tell you that you are 'wrong' or 'right' about any particular selection (apple or applorange). However! The fact that any such cutting can take place does not imply that all such cutting is arbitrary. Indeed there are good reasons why one individuates apples and oranges, beginning with the fact that each exhibits a certain invariance with respect to the form of each. I can pick up the apple, and all of the apple, as it were, will move along with my arm, even as the orange on the table next to it remains where it is.

    Note that in this simple case, what has in some manner individuated the apple is not a mere 'perception' - or at least, is not only a perception - but a certain action, a doing. No matter of conceptualization is at work here: a mechanical arm, programmed to pick up the nearest object which might in this case be an apple, will still pick up only the apple.

    However even if we remained at the level of visual perception, invariance still plays an important role. It is important, when looking at the apple, that the apple does not arbitrarily change its form as we look at it. If you were to change your angle of view by say, 40 degrees by taking a few steps to the left, it is what doesn't change as much as what does change that allows you to see this apple as one: the apple retains a certain axis; it's 'back' changes as you move (you can't see the whole of the apple); the quality of light that reflects off it's surface also alters in certain ways and not others. None of this is merely conceptual or arbitrary, but reflects certain relations of movement and specular quality that would be the same if any other person with similar perceptual capacity moved in the same way (there is indeed an objectivity to what you see).

    The trick here is in recognising that our relationship to the world is not, first and foremost, conceptual, but bodily. Not only are we bodies, but we relate to other things as bodies as well, and bodies offer each other certain affordances that are not, first and foremost, conceptual or arbitrary. What is misleading about your picture is the fact that it is a picture at all: a flat, 2D image that, if you were to turn your screen 40 degrees to the left, would not make the fruits also look like they were displaced at an angle of 40 degrees.

    Importantly, this is not to deny that there are no 'absolutely individuated things'. But the choice is not between things individuated in absolute terms, or in arbitrary terms. Rather, the world itself must be understood to be relational: absolutely relational, even, such that everything is individuated only ever in relation to other things, without, for all that, those individuations being written off as merely arbitrary. Relational 'properties' have no less necessity than 'absolute' ones. It is necessary, by dint of the structure of the apple and the constitution of my body and its movement, that I see the apple in this way, and not other. So the initial dilemma posed - between absolute necessity or arbitrary nothingness - must be denied. What needs to be acknowledged instead is a certain necessity that belongs to the relative itself.
  • StarsFromMemory
    79
    all physical objects are simply an arrangement of atoms/quarks, and the individuating of the object occurs when an individual perceives an arbitrary collection of these quantum objects as a distinct thing in and of itself.finob

    I don't think that individuation occurs due to perception. If you do believe that these elementary particles exists independant of the mind, then the basis of individuation is also set independant of the mind. For instance, the table is indeed composed of molecules and atoms and so is air, however, they are differentiated not due to perception but due to the manner in which their constituents compose them. The particles in the table are packed tightly whereas that of the air are loosely packed.

    However, what does seem artbitary is the manner we perceive such absolute distinctions. The colour blue and the colour red are distinguished objectively based on the wavelengths of the light, however, the way we distinguish them, owing to the primary distinction, can be arbitary. I could find the colour blue to be darker than colour red whereas it could be the opposite for you. Nevertheless, we both would still agree that red is darker than blue simply because we have assigned them meaning on basis of our perception, which conveniently, remains consistent.

    It appears fairly obvious that pictured here are an apple and an orange. But consider this: a term used to describe specifically an apple and an orange together – an applorange. This new conception may appear fairly ridiculous at first and you may say that it is indeed not and applorange because I’ve just made it up, but the creation of this concept in my mind is one just as arbitrary as any object inn any mind – in the same way that the object on the right to you is “obviously” an apple, the conception of these two things together can just as obviously be an applorange to me.finob

    I dont follow. If you do come up with the term - applorange and if it is indeed convenient to use that term, we both would agree that the picture is an applorange. Your argument only shows that we disagree about what terms to use for the picture, however, it is clear to both of us that the picture is indeed an apple and an orange, that I would choose to refer to as 'A PIcture Of Apple And Orange Together' and you would choose to refer to as 'A picture of applorange'.

    The fact that my individuation of something as a distinct “thing” is completely arbitrary, means that the “presence” or “absence” of that thing is already a moot point: that “thing” as an individual concept does not exist outside of my perception to be present or absent in the first place.finob

    Indeed, the distinction can be arbitary. Howeverm certain distinctions are better than others. Consider this for example. Suppose I present infront of a abnormal person, what I call an apple and what I call a sample of huma blood. Further, suppose that this person can only distinguish things based on colour because he has abnormal perception of some other properties such as shape and rigidity. Hence, owning to the same color, the sample of blood and the apple are the same object to his eyes. However, if we present to him a electron microscope, with the aid of which, he is able to see the arrangement of the molecules, he will indeed realise those objects are distinct.

    Hence, the better basis of distinction, is the one that is consistent across observations.

    Again, I could be misunderstanding your point here so please do correct me.
  • I like sushi
    4.8k
    If you haven’t read Wittgenstein’s ‘Philosophical Investigations’ already I couldn’t recommend it enough given the thoughts and ideas you’ve expressed.

    GL :)
  • praxis
    6.5k
    ... it would in fact be false to say that anything exists, absolutely, outside of any perceiving being.finob

    Isn't this self-contradictory? Facts, the duality of truth and fallaciousness, existents, inside/outside, etc., are all the concepts of a sentient being.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Without a perceiving and experiencing body, the boundaries between individual objects disappear.finob

    A most profound observation in my humble opinion. While you seem to have attempted to dissolve boundaries, I've come upon the possibility of more boundaries - divisions instead of unity.

    I imagine a blind person being offered to smell two bottles of the same perfume. The two-ness is picked up by the eyes but the person's nose detects only one smell. Now imagine two objects, one made of metal, colored red and has a specific odor, and the other made of wood, colored blue but with the same odor. Also, these two objects are brought to the same temperature. If a blind person is made to examine these two objects, one by one, by touch and smell, fae will think there's only one object.

    It's a short leap from here to the possibility that our five senses, all together, maybe missing a distinction in a quality that we lack the sensory apparatus to perceive. So the next time someone gives you one of something, give due thought to the possibility that there could be two/more things.

    an applorangefinob

    To be frank, what you're suggesting - that separateness/distinctness isn't real- seems to be an explicit statement on what is already existent in practice. You spoke of an "applorange"; we've been calling this "applorange" fruit. What I mean to say is that the word "fruit" is in fact a word that evidences the erasure of the boundary between oranges and apples. Likewise, many other apparently distinct categories unite at some level of a classificatory system.

    So far, I have explored the abstract way in which these physical objects are individuated. However, it is now a short leap to conclude that the boundaries around any concept, even abstract ones such as happiness or existence itself are just as groundless and subjective.finob

    Indeed, your theory suggests that the differences between concepts too may be an illusion; however is it an illusion? If you read the first paragraph I wrote, it appears that the same concept being different concepts is as likely as two/more concepts being the same concept. Just as the blind man with restored sight discovers that two/more objects can possess the one, same smell, it maybe possible for us, with an extra sense, to discover that what we observe as one concept is actually different concepts. It seems that, if we go by so many on this forum demanding clear definitions, the problem isn't the failure not to see boundaries between concepts but is the failure to see the boundaries. Your theory seems to suggest ambiguity and vagueness are desirable states over precision of definitions.
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