God — Gnostic Christian Bishop

What exactly for the purposes of your thinking, does that term mean, in such terms that another may know if their own understanding comports with yours, to the end of having a discussion that might mke some sense.

What exactly for the purposes of your thinking, does that term mean, in such terms that another may know if their own understanding comports with yours, to the end of having a discussion that might mke some sense. — tim wood

I quoted from the constitution which posits a creator god, and while that document does not name Yahweh, being that the U.S. was a predominantly Christian nation then and now, I took it to mean Yahweh.

Yahweh is not my god but I think most Americans do claim that he is theirs.

Regards
DL

Any "rights" you suppose you have...almost certainly came to you because others fought and died to obtain them.

It appears that the only right gods (if there are any) are concerned with is the right to die.

Please cite the Constitution. What you've got is the Declaration.

The bridge from Jefferson to modern Christianity - or any Christianity - is not an easy route. It may even not exist! In any case, herein he does not posit, he presupposes. There's a difference. And that makes your usage ambiguous at best.

Do you have any real god given rights, or are god given rights just a feel-good lie that we tell ourselves we have so as to ignore that we have none? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Simone Weil writes about this. The Jews did not have a concept of rights in the way we do. Their concept was the justice of God. Weil points out that when Jesus was confronted they asked Him "By whose authority do you say these things?" not "What right do you have to say these things?" What mattered to the Jews was the authority of God, not rights. Rights are invented by statesmen. They are a codification of what was originally understood, by the Jews, as justice that comes from above.

To me, rights are like laws, completely useless and worthless unless they can be enforced by a given power when they are breached. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Earthly laws are intended to try to prevent breaches and to punish (generally) breaches. Those goals overlap and different countries have different views on punishment (say, as opposed to rehabilitation). Pretty much every law is breached. Goverments may take the responsibility for completly eliminating a crime against rights. But generally this is an intent where perfection is out of reach.

A deity, on the other hand, it seems to me is saying that there would be compensation or ultimate justice for that person whose rights are taken away. That ultimately a breach is fixed. So, the good person gets into heavan or whatever.

The word 'right' has a lot of different meanings. It seems clear that pretty much any deity is not guaranteeing an earthly existence without injustice, victims, suffering, but most theisms present a sense in which ultimately or deep down or both, certain rights are respected. And justice is enforced.

the right to die. — Frank Apisa

The only thing we can be sure of.

I see it more as a privilege as life is built on death. I do not mind helping promote new life.

Regards
DL

makes your usage ambiguous at best. — tim wood

Given all the modifications to the U.S. constitution, that should be telling us all that it's language is garbage as it is poorly written.

I think the founders wanted a secular world free of religions and their vile genocidal gods that are somehow good.

Regards
DL

as justice that comes from above. — EnPassant

What began above are laws were not worthy of men. The laws in heaven cannot be the same as laws on earth. Jews have always strove both for and against god. That is why they are mostly atheists.

Justice seek to punish the guilty and Yahweh's first justice call was for a bribe for him to punish the innocent instead of the guilty.

Yahweh is a high grade prick.

Regards
DL

but most theisms present a sense in which ultimately or deep down or both, certain rights are respected. And justice is enforced. — Coben

True. They want there to be retribution so much, they forget they are to love their enemies that they want to see brought to heel.

That love to hate is what keeps Christianity and Islam alive.

Inquisitions and jihads. Got to love them.

Regards
DL

God — Gnostic Christian BishopWhat exactly for the purposes of your thinking, does that term mean, in such terms that another may know if their own understanding comports with yours, to the end of having a discussion that might mke some sense. — tim wood

When people talk of god I tend to think of Father Christmas.

Does this help?

Can’t be given anything by someone who doesn’t exist.

Also, rights aren’t the kind of thing that can be given, by anybody.

And an unenforced right doesn’t cease to exist, it just means someone is getting away with dereliction of their duty. Rights would be a useless concept if them going unenforced made them disappear, as they are most useful in appeals against the violation of them.

God given rights. Do you really have any? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Rights are freedoms that the State allows you to have. We don't need rights, we need freedom to the individual. God is just an early phase of the embodiment of the State.

Rights are freedoms that the State allows you to have. We don't need rights, we need freedom to the individual. — Gus Lamarch

Liberty rights are only one kind of right. Just as important are claim rights (your right against being punched in the face, for instance). There are also second-order versions of each, called powers and immunities, and only those have anything to do with government: all the Bill of Rights rights are immunities from government powers, for instance.

Only one being can occupy his own space and time, and in that sense each one of us is wholly original and one of a kind. On those grounds I think everyone, by virtue of their existence, is endowed with enough worth and dignity and value to warrant a certain amount of respect and honor.

Just as important are claim rights (your right against being punched in the face, for instance). — Pfhorrest

You don't need a bigger bureocracy telling you that you have the liberty to defend yourself. You should already know it.

And if you're punched in the face, your freedom says to you: - Strike back!

Human relationship is one of egoism, a competition for power, and in some cases, aggressive behavior is acceptable.

You don't need a bigger bureocracy telling you that you have the liberty to defend yourself. You should already know it. — Gus Lamarch

Rights say nothing about bureaucracy. Do others have a duty not to punch you in the face? Is it wrong for them to do that to you? Then you have a right not to be punched in the face. That’s all a claim right is.

When a right is given to us by governments — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Given? Is not anything of that sort taken?
Taken by people who accept other claims to authority than given by a State?
Christianity argued there was such a point of leverage before it became the State.

Well, that's another topic. I think that's an oversimplification. I think the reasons Christianity and Islam keep going has a lot of factors in there, some neutral, some even good, though I also would wish they would drop the Abrahamic religions and find their own way without those dated books. I don't think it helped to oversimplify those one disagrees with. Here's their/your one motivation. And then I do think they think that rights do get enforced in the long run. Of course, if they truly believe that, more of them should be really quite relaxed.

God given rights. Do you really have any? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

It seems that I don't have the right to post pictures in this forum. :lol:

The idea of rights seems to originate from admixing the heart and the brain - matters of the heart subject to analysis by the brain. Being that, I see it (rights) as an intersection of all that's good about the heart and the brain and that, my friend, is the mark of god's love and wisdom.

I think the founders wanted a secular world free of religions and their vile genocidal gods that are somehow good. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

No expert, but that sounds like a serious misreading. I don't think the founders sought a world free of religions, they just wanted government to stay out of the religion business.

God given rights. Do you really have any? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Not me, no. I've checked.

God given rights? Do the Easter Bunny or Father Christmas have any responsibilities?

Too much truth in one post for most mortal men to comprehend.

Casual 1500s geocentricist attitude. Hey at least we advanced from imprisoning people for presenting unproven beliefs to merely insulting their intelligence. Progress is progress I suppose.

I think you read Hot Potato backwards; he’s against the 1500s attitude and applauding me for also being against it.

Exactly!

To me, rights are like laws, completely useless and worthless unless they can be enforced by a given power when they are breached.

I agree partly, but if power were the only determining factor regarding rights validity, then why wouldn't a monarchy be the best choice? Concentrating all power in one omniscient individual that is more or less held above the people as a ruler? Couldn't they enforce this concept in its most pure form?

I don't think anyone would disagree that someone with this much power would be subject to corruption of the law to suit their own interests. And I think this is why having rights is superior to just a body that has ultimate power to enforce the law on a large number of unwilling subjects.

Rights being G-d-given seems to be just a way of saying they apply to every person regardless of their wealth, race, gender, and to carry with it the connotation that rights are part of the will of the people and liable to go away once they are no longer valued by them. It would be sort of laughable to actually think people thought G-d literally descended from the heavens to bequeath them rights in some type of material form.

Rights being G-d-given seems to be just a way of saying they apply to every person regardless of their wealth, race, gender, and to carry with it the connotation that rights are part of the will of the people and liable to go away once they are no longer valued by them. — kudos

:up:

Rights being G-d-given seems to be just a way of saying they apply to every person regardless of their wealth, race, gender, and to carry with it the connotation that rights are part of the will of the people and liable to go away once they are no longer valued by them. It would be sort of laughable to actually think people thought G-d literally descended from the heavens to bequeath them rights in some type of material form. — kudos

Gravity is a force, law, or commandment even we all have to live with men had nothing to do with. If we all stop thinking about it will we suddenly be able to fly? Assuming you believe in a god, why would that even be necessary? Like stating it'd be laughable for me to have to get inches away from a deer to shoot it. It would be. Out of sheer irrelevance.