Is it really important to know who lit up what building or is it important to understand the social and civil unrest leading up to these sorts of disturbances? I'm in favour of the latter.
Second, I'm not convinced a hard distinction can be made between protesters and rioters, which makes the effort futile - leading to endless discussions. — Benkei
Protests and riots are symptoms, say, emergent properties of the system. — Benkei
I don't understand why it's an "either/or" scenario... why can't we find both important? — BitconnectCarlos
The rioters are the violent ones. It's concerning that you don't seem to draw much of a distinction between people who peacefully protest and those who destroy and loot local businesses. — BitconnectCarlos
That's fine and we can discuss that, but we shouldn't ignore the other side of the coin which is that people are moral agents who are capable of making decisions and possess moral autonomy. People are ultimately responsible for their actions even if the cards have never been in their favor. — BitconnectCarlos
...it doesn't require a racist belief system to generate systemic racism. — Isaac
Firstly it doesn't require a racist belief system to generate systemic racism. It only requires systems which do not account for, nor rectify, previous racially motivated policies. — Isaac
From whence systemic racism come if not from systems put in place by racists? — creativesoul
A system in which more black people are disporportionally murdered by the state is so regardless if every single government officer was an avowed anti-racist. What matters is results, not intention. — StreetlightX
If you want to propose something extreme such as that the destruction of resources will likely produce a better future for humanity than refraining from such destruction, then of course the onus would be on you to make a convincing argument for that. — Janus
None of the rest of what you say constitutes any argument to support the notion that destruction of resources is likely to lead to better outcomes. It just looks like a "I've read more than you have, so there". Give an argument in your own words for a plausible mechanism for how violence or destruction of resources could lead to positive social change, and I'll give it due consideration and critique. — Janus
Help me out and outline one, even if it is merely hypothetical (which of course it would be anyway) if you can.
So, it's obvious how peaceful protest and rational discussion and agreement (however difficult it might be to achieve them) could work, just outline some ways in which you think violence, looting and destructive behavior might help. — Janus
From whence systemic racism come if not from systems put in place by racists? — creativesoul
Upon a second reading, I realized that this is incoherent. Racially motivated policies are required. Here, you said as much yourself. So, either racist beliefs are not required for racially motivated policies, particularly ones that need corrected(so were unacceptable to begin with) or you're right. — creativesoul
Yet, this seems like something that you're no proud of... as if it is something that you do not want to perpetuate. — creativesoul
It is an undeniable sign of the times. We are all fed up with it. It has no place in a society built upon the founding principles of a representative form of government.
3d — creativesoul
It's good that you and I can deal with both of them as separate things and maybe not have our opinion of the goals of the protests be affected by the consequences of the disturbances but most people can't.
So it's tactical to ignore one of them because of the importance of the other in light of the tactics of the other side.
OK. Why is that a problem in your view?
I guess I'm more forgiving and much more of a collectivist than you to subscribe to "ultimately". What if I poke you every second all the time? Are you ultimately responsible for hitting me in the face or did I have it coming? The US had it coming especially after voting in a racist like Trump. In that respect I consider the restraint of the black community this time around rather legendary, when compared to the reaction to the ludicrous judgment in the Rodney King case in 1992.
Take to the polls or raise money for your candidates. Talk to local community leaders who have connections with the police force. — BitconnectCarlos
.I was one of the ones who started the peaceful protests … the first seven days, when it was fine and dandy. I walked about 101 miles in peace. But if you protest peacefully, they don't give a shit." — William Stewart, Baltimore resident after the 2015 Riots
Do you seriously think this hadn't been tried already at various points in last five years during which police brutality has just been getting worse?
don't do evil so that good may come. — BitconnectCarlos
You can't just say that political lobbying doesn't work. I'm not a police expert by any means, but I know in Camden they did some reforms or in other parts of the country there have been more community-oriented approaches which were achieved through other means besides violent rioting. — BitconnectCarlos
And it is evil. Many Americans live paycheck to paycheck and when you destroy and loot their places of work you are effectively cutting off their livelihood. — BitconnectCarlos
OK so peaceful protests don't work, political lobbying doesn't work, but they're not allowed to 'do evil' either. So the choice left to them is...
Right, I'm not familiar with the history there, but presuming you're right, at the very least we can say that sometimes peaceful means work and sometimes they don't. The question is what to do when they don't. — Isaac
Causing people some financial hardship is 'evil' is it? — Isaac
If every protestor concerned about police brutality joined the force, they can essentially trade current police behavior with their own. So why don’t they just do that? — NOS4A2
They are begging others for change, or committing violence against the innocent in order to threaten to change, but never do they become the change. — NOS4A2
All you can say is that peaceful means have have not worked so far. — BitconnectCarlos
What are even the demands exactly? I have no idea what dismantling systemic racism in the entire US actually means. Give us concrete proposals. — BitconnectCarlos
I'm saying arbitrarily destroying local businesses that have done nothing wrong is evil. — BitconnectCarlos
I expect it'd be because police admissions wouldn't allow it (Minneapolis police psychological testing actually dismisses a disproportionate number of minority applicants), not everyone is suited to it, there aren't anywhere near enough vacancies and... Oh yeah, they might not want to. I can't believe I even wasted the time answering such a stupid question.
One unfortunate result of denying systemic racism in policing is it puts the blame solely on individual police officers rather than on processes over which most of them have little or no individual control, including training, police culture, policing of the police etc. This speaks to the perversity of the accusation that those who point to systemic racism do so with the intention of labeling all cops as racist. If you take the systemic racism out of the equation, all the racism we point to in the system must fall on the cops, making them more not less culpable.
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