I imagine you know - or think you now - what nihilism is - or really is. But "freedom" is the tough one, here. What do you imagine that is? Or even what Fromm thought it was - but I'm more interested in your thinking.Nihilism is the only freedom. — Josh Lee
purpose takes away your freedom — Josh Lee
You have a point I guess, when people willingly submit themselves to a leader, they somewhat unintentionally also chose to bear the consequences. — Josh Lee
I was left with the impression that that, in a way, frees us to chart our own destinies which, paradoxically, is, by your logic, like coming out of one cage and getting back inside another.
@PinprickWithout meaning/purpose, there is nothing you will want to do, therefore you will do nothing. You virtually lose all ability to act. Whatever current state you find yourself in when you lose all purpose/meaning is the state you would remain in until you died.
- @PinprickMy freedom isn’t constrained or expanded due to this belief. I simply accept that all my actions, feelings, and things I find meaningful are irrational or illusory. But since everything is meaningless, I also have no obligation to act or think rationally. So practically speaking I do whatever I want, same as always.
I never thought of Nihilism in this manner, maybe is the portrayal of Joker (idk he is awesome) that got me to perceive a Nihilist as one who just do things as random, when questioned, he usually has no justification for it as his acts has no ulterior motives of greater purpose. — Josh Lee
However a nihilist doesn’t consider the outcomes, — Josh Lee
Just to add on, this seems more of absurdism than nihilism. I’m not completely sure about this, just a though. It just resonates with the story The Stranger by Albert Camus, and the the concepts of it. — Josh Lee
I may have neglected that, but sure it’s a point worth considering. His motivation may be to break the Bat mentally. But many times he does say that he doesn’t have an end goal, so his motivations are questionable.To me that’s evidence of him having motivations for his actions, and deriving meaning in them. — Pinprick
I’m not familiar with nihilism, from my view, if everything is meaningless, both options seems equally possible as both won’t have an impact in any way. This is an area I’m trying to grasp about Nihilism, I’m unable to understand how a nihilist make decisions (or maybe they don’t). Anyone who can help enlighten me on this point is greatly appreciated!Both options are meaningless, but one of them still fulfills a need, and therefore is preferable to the other. — Pinprick
Haha I don’t claim to be familiar to this topic, you probably have more experience and knowledge in this field than me. But I am trying to understand Absurdism a bit more.You’re more familiar with this than I am. — Pinprick
I don’t quite understand what you mean by is-ought gap. Are you referring to moral obligations and purpose?Nihilism itself doesn’t seem to provide a reason to support any particular stance or course of action, because it still can’t bridge the is-ought gap. — Pinprick
I’m not familiar with nihilism, from my view, if everything is meaningless, both options seems equally possible as both won’t have an impact in any way. This is an area I’m trying to grasp about Nihilism, I’m unable to understand how a nihilist make decisions (or maybe they don’t). Anyone who can help enlighten me on this point is greatly appreciated! — Josh Lee
I don’t quite understand what you mean by is-ought gap. Are you referring to moral obligations and purpose? — Josh Lee
Haha no worries, it’s a well structured argument, and since (I assume) everyone in this forum is very knowledgeable, you do bring up some valid counterpoints!Hopefully, this does not distort your argument in any way; if so, please correct me. — Gilbert
This may be a point which I may have overlooked. It’s quite true that when a choice conflicts with your belief, you are free to choose which one you want to follow.I would thus argue that the autonomous option (which always entails the option of freely choosing to discontinue the pursuit of purpose x) — Gilbert
This I’m not so sure, I don’t think a nihilist will obsess himself over anything as he will find it meaningless to do so. Then again my knowledge on nihilism is quite limited as I’m not one myself, so it’s somewhat hard to view it from ones perspective.truly unfree in the sense that one has to obsess himself with the extermination of anything that would 'infringe upon' this freedom and hopefully realize that the underlying notion of freedom is more dogmatic and restrictive than any purpose or meaning one may choose to pursue. — Gilbert
Ahahahaha, I found this very amusing. After going through whether to choose rationally or irrationally, I can imagine a nihilist thinking,” Hmmmm, should I choose or don’t choose?” Which goes into a never ending cycle. HenceA nihilist does not desire any particular end or outcome, so rational choices seem unavailable. Irrational choices may be a possibility, but I think it would be very difficult to determine where to draw the line between them. I find it hard to find a choice that is completely devoid of feeling. So determining whether or not a choice was caused by emotion or reasoning seems difficult. It depends on how strong the emotion is, I suppose. But like I said, I don’t really think nihilism has any practical application in everyday life. — Pinprick
concludes it nicely.But like I said, I don’t really think nihilism has any practical application in everyday life. — Pinprick
I guess we all roughly understand nihilism, but I don’t seem to quite get the mechanics of a nihilist. Maybe this is a different topic of psychology but I still think it’s worth exploring. Possibly from psychoanalysing a group of nihilist, we may get some answers. Anyways thanks for sharing, really broaden my view on nihilism.Even if nihilism was false, and we could prove that life was inherently meaningful, we still couldn’t justify acting. — Pinprick
I don’t seem to quite get the mechanics of a nihilist. — Josh Lee
The minute a purpose is defined there will naturally be actions and behaviours that negate , supress or hinder it which you must overcome and similarly those which will perpetuate encourage and amplify it. Limits are useful for concentration of effort but as you said...provide a means to restrict. — Benj96
I think that it is important to recognize, as the nihilist does, that there is a conflict between freedom and purpose. — Mickey
On another note, I do believe it is possible to live without purpose and not maintain a nihilist position. — Mickey
Ideologies tend to limit the scope of our perception and action, and they are the driving force being purpose/meaning. — Mickey
Our ability to fashion an ideology is, in some sense, our ability to create meaning in our life. So it is not that meaning does not exist. It is rather that it limits our freedom. — Mickey
The point of life is just to live and to cultivate your awareness of it. — Mickey
This seems to be the message of Absurdism, you acknowledge the absurdity of life but embrace and try to rebel it by finding in meaning in the search of meaning.But what about someone who's life purpose is to speculate, to question everything? What if one were to dedicate their life to the pursuit of knowledge or to simply defining a purpose worth achieving in the first place? Then the boundaries to which path they take is essentially limitless as theres always more knowledge to attain -Philosophy being an inherent and unending quest to argue reason and which seemingly has many answers. — Benj96
Yup this well concludes your points and I agree with it, every action has a consequence, and you have to acknowledge that what you do will affect you in the long run.In my opinion it comes down to this; a decision "defines". When you direct or focus your energy and willpower in a certain direction you have defined it as a directed motive has parameters. The minute a purpose is defined there will naturally be actions and behaviours that negate , supress or hinder it which you must overcome and similarly those which will perpetuate encourage and amplify it. Limits are useful for concentration of effort but as you said...provide a means to restrict. The key is to know where to place them and when to revise them. — Benj96
Your first statement well explains the question, I guess the issue most people have is that they believe freedom is being able to choose everything without sacrificing anything, that may be the initial thought I had when coming up with this statement, but your point is worth taking note.I think that it is important to recognize, as the nihilist does, that there is a conflict between freedom and purpose. However, they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Once you have chosen a course of action, as long you initially freely chose it, it is a free action. And one is free to choose otherwise at any point in time. As so often happens, our ideologies or beliefs or values that we hold so dearly conflict with an event that occurs in our lives. When this happens, we are presented with the opportunity to reevaluate and choose again, and redirect our purpose, which we now hold of higher value. — Mickey
Haha there’s somewhat irony or paradox in that statement. [Nihilism: Everything has no meaning.] Wait there’s some meaning in that statement. Some in goes in a never ending loop I guessOur ability to fashion an ideology is, in some sense, our ability to create meaning in our life. So it is not that meaning does not exist. It is rather that it limits our freedom. The problem is the tendency to propose a gloomy alternative to living a meaning filled life. Without religion or morality or ideology or a grand story about the universe, what is left? — Mickey
Again, this is somewhat Absurdism. Acknowledging that there’s no meaning to life and embracing it by finding meaning in the search itself.Life is happening, has been happening, and continues to happen irrespective of our attempt to make sense of it or make it meaning. The point of life is just to live and to cultivate your awareness of it. — Mickey
I never thought of it that way, it’s an interesting concept where a nihilist is leaving in denial of the meaning of life. This goes back to human nature where we somewhat rationalise our actions after doing them. So after a nihilist does something, he shoots down the idea of why he did it and accepts that it was meaningless.He willingly deceives himself, in that his actions betray his beliefs. — Pinprick
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