shortest and quickest way to understand it is to read Kant. And if you really have no idea, then you really have to read it. — tim wood

I'm not following that, have you studied the synthetic a priori knowledge?

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There's one factor that ought to be considered, however - which is that from the non-believer's perspective, there can be no real merit beyond the social, cultural and personal domain. There's nothing at stake beyond that. Whereas from the religious perspective there really is something at stake - something of ultimate importance. So there's an asymmetry there. — Wayfarer

I'd say that reversing the long-term damage to the planet done by humans, while social in origin, goes beyond "the social, cultural and personal domain", being about not just what is left for us, but after us. And, while a believer may disagree in part due to the quality of their ideas, I think even a fence-sitter would argue that it's of more importance than whether a person wins eternal happiness or has an all-powerful father figure.

use the word cause as a kind of black box. But that won't do. You shall have to open the box and start to try to understand the word - and it's not a simple word. — tim wood

What would you call the metaphysical phenomena it causes you to live or die?

Let's nail this down. 3017amen agrees that God does not exist in any material way or sense, but rather that the existence of g/God(s) is as ideas and is a function of and depends entirely and solely on the minds that think them. Can we be clear on this? — tim wood

On the contrary Jesus was a man.

And you keep throwing the word "metaphysical." The more thrown, the more I'm persuaded you don't know what it means. I have a definition - not mine - that metaphysics is the study of the presuppositions and absolute presuppositions made by different people at different times. Is that yours also? — tim wood

The nature of your existence.

I'm still waiting for your answers in round one. Surely you're not thinking about throwing in the towel already or are you? We've got lots more ground to cover and many more domains to explore. LOL

Oh and by the way, asking help from your corner will not help you much now! Doesn't seem like you've done the requisite training. Lol

Arent you essentially reinforcing Wayfarers point there? To a believer, you have your priorities out of order in not putting god or the afterlife before worldly concerns.

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The analytic a priori judgment is always necessarily and universally so and cannot be otherwise - as a matter of the logic of the thing.. — tim wood

I see. So is this some sort of metaphysical innate sense of wonderment about causation?

you aver Jesus was (a) god. then evidence. And hearsay rules apply; hearsay is not evidence. — tim wood

I believe Jesus was recorded in history much like George Washington Albert Einstein et.al.

So far I've landed more punches than you in round one; is that all you got? I'm like Muhammad Ali, I like taunting LOL

For the rest, it's appearing that you do not know how, or are not interested, in a real discussion. Recall I said I'm not playing. Start making sense, or quit. — tim wood

Complaining to the referee on process I see lol.

Let me be a little clearer, metaphysical will is that which precludes you from committing suicide. But in this match, it won't preclude you from losing this round.

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English and coherence, please. — tim wood

Does this mean you're throwing in the towel already?

Okay let me try a couple of softer punches. Let's start with the very simple. What causes you to wonder in your consciousness? Do you know?

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Arent you essentially reinforcing Wayfarers point there? To a believer, you have your priorities out of order in not putting god or the afterlife before worldly concerns. — DingoJones

No, I think even a believer can figure out that their personality fate is not more important than the human species and the Earth beyond it. Whether they do figure it out is a different matter.

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Are you asking what causes me to wonder, or what causes wonder? — tim wood

Good, we're making progress. Both.

I think I'll rope-a-dope a little bit while you're pondering that important question relative to existence. That way you can think a little more clearly . LOL

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Let me repeat it did I knock you senseless already?

Here it is: Are you asking what causes me to wonder, or what causes wonder?

My answer: both.

Rope a dope, rope a dope, LOL

I dont think it is about personal fate, nor about placing it selfishly above the rest of the human race. From the perspective of a believer (not your perspective, as an unbeliever) the long tern effects on the planet, the mortal lives of all humans, or really just any trappings of this life are a minuscule concern next to immortal soul and gods higher purpose.
You may not agree, but its fallacious to use different premises (there is no god or afterlife, all that stuff is bullshit) to justify the rejection of a conclusion based on different premises (there is a god and afterlife). Obviously if you dont believe you arent going to think any if that is more important than mortal concerns (which are the only concerns a non-believer has).

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Imponderable. Unanswerable. — tim wood

Are you saying that your own existence isn't ponderable or unanswerable?

Surely this couldn't be the case could it? It makes me wonder, no pun intended, if you can't answer basic questions about your own consious existence, in this case your will to live, how could you possibly answer questions or make any statements whatsoever about Jesus' existence?

Jesus, in historical texts who had a conscious,
did exist , didn't he? And you, you have a conscious and exist too, right?

Well if I haven't knocked you senseless yet, it follows that since you can't answer the basic metaphysical questions about your own will/conscious existence, then how you could you possibly answer questions about someone else's existence like Jesus?

So the knockout punch, if you will, appears to be you can't make any statements about God,/Jesus' existence. Using your logic, how is that possible?

Think about that a little bit more before we proceed, since this is critical to Metaphysics, existence, and your sense of Logic.

Please share your thoughts. But right now, I can't escape the conclusion I'm coming to in round one, which is to say that you can't make any declarations about either yourself or God. LOL

lend oversight — tim wood

Nahhh......you’re doing alright.

... are a minuscule concern next to immortal soul and gods higher purpose.
You may not agree, but its fallacious to use different premises (there is no god or afterlife, all that stuff is bullshit) to justify the rejection of a conclusion based on different premises (there is a god and afterlife). Obviously if you dont believe you arent going to think any if that is more important than mortal concerns (which are the only concerns a non-believer has). — DingoJones

I'm saying that even as a 50/50 agnostic, I hope I'd put the future of the planet ahead of my personal fate. The notion that people who are concerned with oppression of others, equality for others, the environment, etc. have lesser concerns than someone whose chief goal, they are repeatedly told, is to look after their post mortem existence makes the fallacy entirely your own. The two are incomparable, but in quite the other direction.

Im not sure that characterisation is accurate or helpful. I get what you are saying, I knew a guy that would go to church on christmas and pray for himself and no one else. Id agree, Very selfish.
Most believers arent like that though, many a christian will genuinely feel its of utmost importance to prioritise everyones soul, and that everyone is better off putting god first.

Most believers arent like that though, many a christian will genuinely feel its of utmost importance to prioritise everyones soul, and that everyone is better off putting god first. — DingoJones

I'm sure they would, it would be the Christian thing to do. And that will help them on judgement day. Okay, that's a mean joke, I take it back.

I'm sure many Christians also pray for an end to global warming, an end to mass extinction, an end to injustice, etc. These would be obvious things to pray for, and go beyond personal salvation.

Is there anything that you know of that Christians pray for that is more important than their personal salvation and is more important than the biggest problems facing secular society? Maybe defeating Satan? Although Revelations tells us Satan will burn forever in fire and brimstone, so that would be pointless. What things do you pray for that are of more importance than the comparatively petty "social, cultural and personal" considerations I've suggested?

I'm sure many Christians also pray for an end to global warming, an end to mass extinction, an end to injustice, etc. These would be obvious things to pray for, and go beyond personal salvation. — Kenosha Kid

Well, depends on the brand of believer. Some of them have salvation (still not going to concede its all about “personal” salvation) tied very closely with the end of the world or judgement day. Some see those things you mentioned are viewed as gods plan or signs the day of judgement is coming (a good thing, under those views.)

Is there anything that you know of that Christians pray for that is more important than their personal salvation and is more important than the biggest problems facing secular society — Kenosha Kid

Most christians think everyones salvation is more important than their own. Secular society concerns are mortal concerns, and are less important to certain believers for the same reasons ive already mentioned.

What things do you pray for that are of more importance than the comparatively petty "social, cultural and personal" considerations I've suggested? — Kenosha Kid

I dont pray for anything, im an atheist and an anti-thiest.

So how do you know what most Christians pray for?

I'm not hearing anything that justifies the claim that, even from a believer's point of view, puts believer's concerns somehow ahead of the secular world. Even the salvation of everyone is a secular concern, and I'm confident that secular means will be the means by which it is done, if it is done.

So how do you know what most Christians pray for? — Kenosha Kid

By talking to them, by listening to them, by reading about them and the writing they themselves do, by studying religion in an academic setting and by way of personal experience.
What about you?

I'm not hearing anything that justifies the claim that, even from a believer's point of view, puts believer's concerns somehow ahead of the secular world. Even the salvation of everyone is a secular concern, and I'm confident that secular means will be the means by which it is done, if it is done. — Kenosha Kid

Not sure where we are missing each other here...secular concerns are mortal concerns. Do you understand what I mean by that? Some believers view this world as a pale shadow of what awaits them after they/we leave this world, this world only exists as a stepping stone to whats truly important, being with god forever in paradise.

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