That assumes Postmodern theorists say anything goes when it comes to Truth — Thanatos Sand
Perhaps I'm being overly cynical but I don't think that has ever been the case, so the term "post-truth" should be replaced by something that more accurately captures the distinction Banno made in the OP between lying and bullshitting.
I found this quote from Karl Rove interesting. Rove was one of GW Bush's advisors, I believe.
"...when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."
I may very well be wrong here, but it seems like the liar believes in objective truth (even while misrepresenting it) while the bullshitter thinks that truth is completely subjective. I think of the debate in terms outlined way back in Plato's Protagoras, where Protagoras famously claims that "man is the measure of all things," which seems to imply an extreme form of relativism.
The term was selected by the Oxford Dictionary as 2016 Word of the Year.
The dictionary defines “post-truth” as “relating to or denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief.”
It is similar to Frankfurt's technical use of "Bullshit" in that truth and falsehood cease to be significant. The post-truth world is the result of the ascendancy of the bullshitter, who is contrasted with the liar in that while the liar knows what is true and what is false, and knowingly speaks falsehoods, the bullshitter does not know or care for truth.
But of course truth is what is still there despite what you say about it. A post-truth world must fail. — Banno
got ya. I guess it would say that someone who actually freed themselves from the socio-cultural concept of "Truth" they grew up with would be a Platonic ideal that just doesnt' exist in humanity. Even Trump can see that Ivanka is (probably), as opposed to Bannon or Erik Jr, his daughter, and he knows the White House is in Washington, not Valhalla. — Thanatos Sand
I think you're on the right track.
I haven't read Frankfurt's book, but my sense of the bullshitter is that he is not just a subjectivist but indifferent to questions of truth and falsity. You say what you say just for the effect, for instance as a move in a negotiation. Might be true, might be false, who cares? I think there is a concern that the bullshitter can naturally morph into a confabulist who isn't even sure when he's telling the truth. — Srap Tasmaner
Which is great, because it is unmasking everyone else. That's why they hate Trump.In the political arena Trump does seem to represent at least a more brazen disregard for truth than is normally seen, even amongst the professional liars and hypocrites who typically inhabit this world. — Erik
Yes yes, by all means! But that's what the media is already doing! The media is already telling us that the Wolves of Wall Street are the "real men", who have all the money, women and enjoyment! They are constantly being portrayed as the "great" and "successful" men, who have a right to trample everyone else under their feet.It felt like he was using his penchant for deceit as a selling point, wearing it as a badge of honor, as of that personal trait would make him an exceptional politician once it was channeled away from his personal business endeavors and towards the larger interests of his constituency. — Erik
You always butt into discussions and send them down a tangent which has nothing to do with the topic. If you're curious about this, I would suggest that you open a separate thread, since it is afterall a separate issue than what is being discussed here.How many thousands of years ago did the first human condemn the present age as if the world was once perfect or even slightly better? It must satisfy some need...
But what? — Mongrel
My point is that we've done nothing to stop those guiding values, but quite the contrary. Every time when you engage in locker room talk for example, you are cementing these guiding values. Every time you use expressions like "no one would want to have sex with him, he doesn't know how to play his cards right" and so forth, you're cementing those values. Just recently I had to straighten out a friend because she said a similar thing about a guy here to me. So I had to question her about what she means, and if she suggests that if he were "a better card player" then he should be a guy we should admire instead of look down upon.Well, those are the guiding values of our materialistic and individualistic commercial civilization. — Erik
Thinking along the lines of Nietzsche's joyful affirmation of life in its entirety, and willing the eternal recurrence of the same, all the while railing against particular features of the present (as having originated in things that happened long ago) and projecting new possibilities into the future. That tension has, and probably always will, be a feature of human existence until we're all dead. — Erik
Here is the difference with Trump; despite his comments being shown to be false, they are repeated and acted on. Truth no longer plays a part in the dialogue, nor in the actions they entail.In the political arena Trump does seem to represent at least a more brazen disregard for truth than is normally seen, even amongst the professional liars and hypocrites who typically inhabit this world. — Erik
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