If thoughts are immaterial,

would you say that they are immaterial entities which depend on material ones (molecules), and their properties (ratios, absolute quantities, spatial organization, chemical properties), to exist or that they are entirely immaterial and do not depend on any material entity to exist?

If thoughts are immaterial,

would you say that they are immaterial entities which depend on material ones (molecules), and their properties (ratios, absolute quantities, spatial organization, chemical properties), to exist or that they are entirely immaterial and do not depend on any material entity to exist? — Daniel

Knowing that would end the debate wouldn't it? If you ask me, aligning myself with the OP's line of inquiry, one could ask the question: does a thought have mass and does it occupy space? Possessing mass and volume are essential attributes of matter, ergo, foundational to materialism. Even supposing a good materialsitic theory explains the phenomenon of thinking, it still has to concede that thoughts themselves are immaterial. One could, if one is so inclined, use this simple indubitable fact - the immaterial nature of thoughts/thinking - as a jumping board to make, at the very least, the claim that there is an immaterial aspect to the mind and, if one is creative enough, a lot more could follow.

It appears then that all materialistic theories of the mind are doomed to failure on that point. — TheMadFool

Yep. :wink:

:smile: Stay safe. I hope you aren't anywhere near a coronavirus hot zone. — TheMadFool

Thanks. Where I live, they are just starting to ease the lockdown that has been in place for 4 months. The main problem here is not really the number of people infected not the deaths, it is the lack of hospital space, staff to man them and medicine to treat people.
The population is less than 10 million, the registered infections are just over 40 thousand and the deaths about 1500.

If the people going back to work do it responsibly there might not be too much trouble as the open more businesses. But we know what people are like, that is not going to happen. The vast majority of the people are poor, and after 4 months of not working will not be taking the precautions necessary.

If I was religious I would probably be saying god help us.

But I will just put my trust in Murphy and keep out of the way.

:up:

Neurological processes obviously take up space so that's not your question.

A more interesting question would be; is the thinker-thought pair / the self / the one claiming "I exist" totally dependent on the physiological electrochemical processes in the brain or not?

I would say it is and so the mind does occupy space (and also vanish when the body stops working i.e. dies).

Does anyone want to provide a fixed definition of space? — Sir2u

I'll give it a go! The answer is a Hologram, otherwise known in physics as the Holographic Principle. The universe is a time matrix consciousness hologram.

Neurological processes obviously take up space so that's not your question. — John Onestrand

I would say it is and so the mind does occupy space (and also vanish when the body stops working i.e. dies). — John Onestrand

So if it takes up space and then disappears, where does it goes when it leaves the body?

I'll give it a go! The answer is a Hologram, otherwise known in physics as the Holographic Principle. The universe is a time matrix consciousness hologram. — 3017amen

So is the mind a hologram? But even if it was, does it occupy space?

Sir2U!

Thanks for your reply! The short answer would be yes and yes. The Hologram is a good analogy because the mind is information and energy. Light is energy in space. Space contains energy.

I read from your previous posts that you were using the computer analogy. Are Qubits like light energy to where its information is conflated with mass and energy (light has no mass but has energy)? And are Qubits essentially flat and two-dimensional like Holograms?

Also, (sorry for all the questions) if information doesn't pass with the extinction of time, and from relativity the speed of light makes time stand still, does light/information itself become timeless and eternal?

I think the Hologram Principle has many implications don't you?

(Key concepts are: light, information, space and energy.)

The Hologram is a good analogy because the mind is information and energy. — 3017amen

Maybe so, but the brain is chemicals and energy, exactly where is the information? If the information is the combination and arrangement(conflation) of these two it does not occupy any space of its own, therefore would be nothing more than a property of the brain.

flat and two-dimensional like Holograms — 3017amen

Are holograms supposed to be 3D?

Also, (sorry for all the questions) if information doesn't pass with the extinction of time, and from relativity the speed of light makes time stand still, does light/information itself become timeless and eternal? — 3017amen

I am going to wait for the proof that time stands still before commenting on this. But even then I think I would need you to explain exactly what you mean by information.

The electrochemical process take up space much like the electrical grid in your home. It produces heat, light and can be transformed into mechanical energy for appliances (brain activities).

When there's no power to the grid the output stops and the question "where does it goes?" becomes pointless; we don't ask "where does the activity of our vacuum cleaner goes when we pull the plug?".

I am going to wait for the proof that time stands still before commenting on this. But even then I think I would need you to explain exactly what you mean by information. — Sir2u

John Wheeler's PAP and double-slit experiments.

Are holograms supposed to be 3D? — Sir2u

I think they are 2D.

Maybe so, but the brain is chemicals and energy, exactly where is the information? If the information is the combination and arrangement(conflation) of these two it does not occupy any space of its own, therefore would be nothing more than a property of the brain. — Sir2u

I agree with 'maybe so'. The information is in the form of electrical energy (QM) and/or EM field theories of consciousness. Accordingly, space itself contains that information.

Though not completely analogous, just think of audio/visual electromagnetic signals from the air waves/space. Then combine that with the phenomenon of double-slits. Space then contains information and energy. Just like light energy being within space.

The electrochemical process take up space much like the electrical grid in your home. — John Onestrand

As has been explained earlier, electricity is an effect of the movement of electrons and the electrons are part of the conductive material. The electricity then does not take up any more space than the piece of wire.

When there's no power to the grid the output stops and the question "where does it goes?" becomes pointless; — John Onestrand

Of course it is pointless to ask where something goes when it was never there in the first place. The wire is exactly the same as it was before, after and during the flow of electricity.
If ten people are passing a couple of balls around the room, is the more or less space occupied when the stop passing it? There is no difference in occupied space only the position of occupation in the room, just as in the material conducting electricity.

Space then contains information and energy. Just like light energy being within space. — 3017amen

The fact that space contains information and energy does not make it conclusive that information and energy occupy space.

The fact that space contains information and energy does not make it conclusive that information and energy occupy space.

Then you would simply have to prove why/how there is something and not nothing.

Just curious, have you studied NeuroQuantology? It's kind of the latest thing in science that combines QM and neuroscience.

Then you would simply have to prove why/how there is something and not nothing. — 3017amen

I don't have to prove anything because I have not made any declarations that require proof. And what I said does not lead to whether there is something instead of nothing either.

Hold your hand in front of you, it takes up space right. What information is in that space that is separate from the hand that is occupying it. None. The genetic info included in the cells is part of the cells, a property of the cells, and it occupies the same space as the cells. When the body dies, what happens to the information? The basic information that many think is included in atoms and particles is still there, so where did the other stuff go to?

It's kind of the latest thing in science — 3017amen

Does that guarantee that anything they think is true? There are many people that think that while quantum theory could explain things in biology it cannot be applied to the mind. Until someone comes up with some evidence for us to review, I will again reserve my thought on the matter.

Just for fun.

Is the mind simply a product of the mind?

An abstraction.

The product of things that are in physical existence. Where does the mind stand if you were to categorize things in existence?

Photons exist but do not occupy space.

Imagine every molecule in your brain. At any given time, every molecule in your brain occupies a particular point/position in the space determined by the extent of your brain; however, not all the volume of your brain is occupied by molecules at any given time. The shape/figure/architecture/distribution of the volume inside your brain which is void of molecules is not the same at any given time since the position of the molecules changes. The volume inside your brain which is void of molecules is constant as long as the number of molecules is kept constant; however, the shape/figure/architecture/distribution of this volume is not constant even when the number of molecules is kept constant. Is it plausible that the shape/figure/architecture/distribution of the volume inside your brain which is void of molecules and its constant change in shape are correlated to the mind?

I don't have to prove anything because I have not made any declarations that require proof. And what I said does not lead to whether there is something instead of nothing either. — Sir2u

Okay. Then it sounds like both space contains information and energy, and information and energy occupy space.

Hold your hand in front of you, it takes up space right. What information is in that space that is separate from the hand that is occupying it. None. The genetic info included in the cells is part of the cells, a property of the cells, and it occupies the same space as the cells. When the body dies, what happens to the information? The basic information that many think is included in atoms and particles is still there, so where did the other stuff go to? — Sir2u

All that describes is the distinction between matter and energy. You haven't made the case that energy somehow doesn't exist, like it does everywhere, and within space.

The Hologram Principle is pretty straightforward.

The mind is a type of functionality. Functionality can't be expressed with one state. It is about the change that takes place over several physical states, and the meaning between those different states.

If the mind is a collection of physical states, then yes, I'd say the mind does occupy a space. But maybe that wasn't your question. Maybe you wanted to know if the mind can be isolated from the brain in some manner.

All that describes is the distinction between matter and energy. — 3017amen

But matter and energy are the same thing, just in different states.

You haven't made the case that energy somehow doesn't exist, like it does everywhere, and within space. — 3017amen

Everyone knows that energy exists, and no one is saying that it does not. The discussion is whether the mind occupies space.
If the mind is counted as energy, then it is part of the material of the brain.That makes it a property of the brain and it cannot exist outside of the brain so it cannot itself occupy space.

Banno's red cup has the properties of being red and keeping his coffee hot, neither can exist outside of the cup so they do not occupy any space.

But matter and energy are the same thing, just in different states. — Sir2u

Agreed. That's another reason why the Hologram principle works. And that's because it follows the first law of thermodynamics known as, the Law of Conservation of Energy,.

Since energy can neither be created nor destroyed, energy can only be transferred or changed from one form to another. For example, turning on a light would seem to produce energy; however, it is electrical energy that is converted.

And so space contains energy and energy contains space. Add to that QM, PAP, double-slits etc. and the overwhelming evidence suggests the mind is just a microcosm of a larger metaphysical phenomena.

the mind or consciousness is a process, the brain occupies space, the electrochemical signals do, consciousness is just a result or outcome of such, it doesn't need to occupy space

the mind or consciousness is a process, the brain occupies space, the electrochemical signals do, consciousness is just a result or outcome of such, it doesn't need to occupy space — Augustusea

Agreed.

Is the mind affected by time?

Is the mind affected by time? — Daniel

Affected as in not working properly due to age or as in responding to the passing of it?

As in responding to the passing of it. Like, does the mind changes with time? Or is it outside of time, timeless, not affected by time, at all?

Everyone knows that energy exists, and no one is saying that it does not. The discussion is whether the mind occupies space.
If the mind is counted as energy, then it is part of the material of the brain.That makes it a property of the brain and it cannot exist outside of the brain so it cannot itself occupy space.

Banno's red cup has the properties of being red and keeping his coffee hot, neither can exist outside of the cup so they do not occupy any space. — Sir2u

There is no reason to assume that the mind, understood as energy, is confined to the material of the brain.

We attribute properties to conceptual ‘objects’ arbitrarily - Banno’s cup is not the only thing keeping his coffee hot, and it also keeps other items hot that exist outside of the red cup. The cup casts a reflection on the shiny white table that has the property of being red, ‘occupying’ space outside of the red cup that is contingent upon the existence and redness of the cup in relation to the table and the light...

elaborate please?

Is the mind timeless? Does it change at all with the passage of time? Or does it always posses the same exact qualities as time progresses?