 Pantagruel
Pantagruel         
          Pantagruel
Pantagruel         
          Anaxagoras
Anaxagoras         
         Do you think realism constitutes a normative position? I guess pragmatism might fit? — Pantagruel
 Pantagruel
Pantagruel         
         The gist was, if you are making a normative choice, it seems more reasonable to opt for an optimistic versus a pessimistic norm. That the notion of a norm is inherently melioristic, in other words..... — Pantagruel
 Pantagruel
Pantagruel         
         Since, the pessimist bases his attitude on the uniformity of human behavior (people were/are bad and so they will be bad) and the optimist's attitude turns on humans being capable of breaking their habit (people were/are bad but they can be different) and since humans have clearly demonstrated they're capable of change when they so desire, it seems to be that the optimist has realized something important about us viz. that we're capable of changing our nature or, at the very least, fighting it. — TheMadFool
 Pantagruel
Pantagruel         
         You should not unless you''re a bot.
To disagree is to be free.
:chin: — TheMadFool
 180 Proof
180 Proof         
         Okay; not a fan of "optimists" (i.e. precautionary principle-deniers, black swan-suckers, panglossian status quo-comformists):if you are making a normative choice, it seems more reasonable to opt for an optimistic versus a pessimistic norm. That the notion of a norm is inherently melioristic, in other words..... — Pantagruel
 Ciceronianus
Ciceronianus         
         But not free to agree.... — Pantagruel
We will be safe. (optimist)
We will not be safe. (pessimist)
We are safe - until we are not. (realist) — 180 Proof
 Pantagruel
Pantagruel         
         Speaking from the standopint of the principle of uniformity of nature - the foundation of laws/rules that restrict, confine, limit, coerce, shackle, chain our freedom. Too much freedom is also not good though. — TheMadFool
 Pantagruel
Pantagruel         
         So Hobbes as pessimist need not believe that we should be selfish, nor do I think a pessimist is bound to believe we should be selfish. It's quite possible for a pessimist to think we should be unselfish, but yet are not. — Ciceronianus the White
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