Once rhe brain is deprived of oxygen cell death occurs.The mind can't be the brain because when I die, my brain doesn't go anywhere but my consciousness (mind) is missing. — TheMadFool
But, everything about a circulation can be measured physically - the flow rate, the physical appearance of the blood, the chemical content of the blood, etc. but can you measure thought - what is it's color? how much does each thought weigh? — TheMadFool
Is the quantum level physical, non-physical, or something else? — Harry Hindu
When you ask how much each thought weighs or what is the colour of thought, you are asking how much each circulation weighs or what is the colour of circulation — Daniel
Once rhe brain is deprived of oxygen cell death occurs.
Then where does your consciousness go when you're asleep? And how does it come back when you wake up? — Harry Hindu
I did not mean that thoughts depend (entirely) on the flow rate or composition of (or any other property of) blood that reaches the brain. — Daniel
Yet drugs and damage to the brain causes a change in consciousness.There lies the rub. The mind seems to be independent of the brain because when we sleep, the brain is still intact inside the head and yet we're not conscious. :chin: — TheMadFool
But there's a problem with this view. I find it hard to believe — TheMadFool
Why do we need a brain then, or even a body? — Harry Hindu
This makes no sense. If the brain is physical, then why wouldn't patterns of brain activity not be physical? What is the difference between physical and non-physical? Is the pattern of the TV show on your TV screen physical or not?I guess I'd be happy with the view that the mind, although being associated with a physical brain, is some kind of pattern of brain activity - patterns are abstractions and are, in my humble opinion, not physical. — TheMadFool
This makes no sense. If the brain is physical, then why wouldn't patterns of brain activity not be physical? What is the difference between physical and non-physical? Is the pattern of the TV show on your TV screen physical or not? — Harry Hindu
A real pattern on a pancake. What's the problem? Every pancake is unique- meaning they have unique patterns, just like fingerprints and neural wiring. Is the pattern on the tip of your fingers not physical?If pareidolia is false then patterns are objective properties of physical objects but then you'd have to believe this pattern is real and whatever it entails: — TheMadFool
A real pattern on a pancake. What's the problem? Every pancake is unique- meaning they have unique patterns, just like fingerprints and neural wiring. Is the pattern on the tip of your fingers not physical? — Harry Hindu
I think all you need to do is show how a mind can exist independently of anything physical. — praxis
REM sleep is "paradoxical" because of its similarities to wakefulness. Although the body is paralyzed, the brain acts somewhat awake, with cerebral neurons firing with the same overall intensity as in wakefulness — wikipedia
Be the first person ever to define matter — Gregory
The pattern exists independently of the meaning that you give to the pattern. The pattern is then objective, its meaning subjective. — Daniel
So when certain parts of the brain are damaged and it affects your ability to recognize faces, speak, etc., but when the whole brain dies you are able to rise off the physical brain and see Grandma and speak English? — Harry Hindu
The reason that the brain patterns are similar during REM and being awake is because you are dreaming. Where does dreaming take place - if not in your brain? When you are dreaming it is really difficult to tell the difference between dreaming and being awake, or being conscious. It is only after the fact that you realize that you were dreaming.At this juncture we must take note of the fact that in dualism, the mind is distinct from thoughts. Minds in dualism do the thinking and are not the thoughts themselves.
Since the consensus seems to be that patterns of brain activity are just thoughts, minds can't be brain patterns at all.
Of course one could then say that the brain is the mind - its pattern of activity representing individual thoughts. The problem with this physicalistic position is REM sleep, which somnologists have given the interesting name paradoxical sleep, a big clue in this puzzle.
REM sleep is "paradoxical" because of its similarities to wakefulness. Although the body is paralyzed, the brain acts somewhat awake, with cerebral neurons firing with the same overall intensity as in wakefulness
— wikipedia
REM sleep is a state in which the brain is as active as it is when we're awake and fully conscious but we're not conscious. If the mind is the brain then why aren't we conscious during REM sleep? After all brain activity in REM sleep resembles brain activity when awake. :chin: — TheMadFool
The reason that the brain patterns are similar during REM and being awake is because you are dreaming. Where does dreaming take place - if not in your brain? When you are dreaming it is really difficult to tell the difference between dreaming and being awake, or being conscious. It is only after the fact that you realize that you were dreaming.
If the mind is not the thoughts, then what exactly is the mind and how would you know that it exists if not for some thought? "I think, therefore I am" is asserting that thinking is the evidence for the existence of the mind. — Harry Hindu
I'm mainly concerned about the brain activity being the same between awake and REM sleep states. If the mind is the brain, we should be conscious on both occasions but we're not. — TheMadFool
I thought your concern was the matter of the mind being physical or not. I don't see the connection to dream sleep and being awake. — praxis
Have you heard of lucid dreaming? — praxis
how do you explain the fact that the mind is never the same? or the self is never the same? I bet you are never the same person. Your self changes through time. How do you explain that with a non-physical entity? — Daniel
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