• substantivalism
    270
    Dear philosophy forum,

    I was digging through some older discussions here and happened to come across one which went over a form of subjective idealism popularized by Berkeley. The discussion at first was focused on what the question was specifically about but then a few posters moved the discussion away from the main question to that of whether this substance disagreement between idealism/materialism really held water. I thought i'd start it up again because this had interested me since I entered philosophy and was introduced to those most popular positions of idealism/materialism/physicalism/neutral monism/pluralism/dualism/etc. So i'm deciding to bring back a discussion of whether these positions were truly significantly distinguished or if what they disagreed upon was more semantic in nature.

    The sticking point for much of this stemmed from a few philosophical jumping off points that made distinctions between certain rather distinct experiences/ideas. First there was a distinction between what you considered to be part of your mind and what gives rise to said experiences/the nature of these experiences. You don't need to assume here a jump to a form of external realism but merely state via a form of skepticism that we do not truly understand nor could know the true nature of these ideal experiences fully. Idealists attempt to make these things you experience axiomatic/fundamental basically closing off any further investigation of what makes them what they are while a materialist asserts their are things distinct from these experiences you possess that some how metaphysically ground/sufficiently explain their existence/natures but have distinguishable natures of their own. The second jumping off point is an admittance of other similar minds. I guess here were assuming then that these other minds don't much differ from yours nor that what they are made of is too different than what grounds your own experiences.

    The issues that arise come when you define what the terms physical or ideal even mean as either may end in tautologies or an in flux of metaphysical presumptions. When defining what it means for something to be physical we usually start off with our intuitions surrounding everyday objects or waking experiences contrasted to perceptual illusions/our imagination which don't contain the same concrete nature those other things possess. This strategy of playing to our intuitions or talking about what isn't a physical thing (via negativa) isn't all that fruitful and sooner or later a more specific generalized as well as rigorous definition is required. This has lead some to say that what a physical thing is has something to do with our best scientific theories leading to us postulating entities that may be overwritten by future theories or talking about entities in potential theories which don't yet exist (Hempel's Dilemma). In fact it's rather intriguing that the notion of physicalism/materialism has changed in such a large way from being a specific pet ontological assumption about what makes up reality (Lucretius, Descartes, Newton, with their ethers or atoms) to what ever entities happen to be indispensable to a specific scientific theory.

    What are your own thoughts on this? What is an ideal/physical entity? How far can you indulge in a form of realism before your idealism becomes nearly synonymous to physicalism (depending on the definition)?

    Sincerely, college freshman going on sophomore year
  • David Mo
    960
    What is an ideal/physical entity? How far can you indulge in a form of realism before your idealism becomes nearly synonymous to physicalism (depending on the definition)?substantivalism
    You can't expect definitive answers to your questions. Remember that we are in the philosophical field.

    Anyway, my answer:

    Two types of materialism are often proposed: metaphysical and epistemological. My option is different --although close to the second-- : I defend a materialism without matter. My definition of materialism is based on Wittgenstein's familiy-resemblance. A semantic perspective, at least.
    I suggest abandoning the search for something called "matter" and focusing on this question:
    What is called "materialism" in the different branches of knowledge?

    This leads to energy and mass in physics; to biochemical processes in biology; to the brain and behavior in psychology; to productive forces in history; to empiricism in epistemology.

    All these options are similar in that they are opposed to supernatural: God, the spirit, the ideal. In short, materialism is the thesis of a unique world at hand.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    The issues that arise come when you define what the terms physical or ideal even mean as either may end in tautologies or an in flux of metaphysical presumptions. When defining what it means for something to be physical we usually start off with our intuitions surrounding everyday objects or waking experiences contrasted to perceptual illusions/our imagination which don't contain the same concrete nature those other things possess. This strategy of playing to our intuitions or talking about what isn't a physical thing (via negativa) isn't all that fruitful and sooner or later a more specific generalized as well as rigorous definition is required. This has lead some to say that what a physical thing is has something to do with our best scientific theories leading to us postulating entities that may be overwritten by future theories or talking about entities in potential theories which don't yet exist (Hempel's Dilemma). In fact it's rather intriguing that the notion of physicalism/materialism has changed in such a large way from being a specific pet ontological assumption about what makes up reality (Lucretius, Descartes, Newton, with their ethers or atoms) to what ever entities happen to be indispensable to a specific scientific theory.

    What are your own thoughts on this?
    substantivalism

    I don't think we need to break our heads on the definition of "physical". Only recognize that thoughts aren't the same as, say, a pencil or a tree. No matter, how one defines "physical" or its antithesis "immaterial" we won't have a good enough reason to put thoughts in the same category of pencils or trees or brains. That's what I think anyway. What say you?
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    First there was a distinction between what you considered to be part of your mind and what gives rise to said experiences/the nature of these experiences. You don't need to assume here a jump to a form of external realism but merely state via a form of skepticism that we do not truly understand nor could know the true nature of these ideal experiences fully. Idealists attempt to make these things you experience axiomatic/fundamental basically closing off any further investigation of what makes them what they are while a materialist asserts their are things distinct from these experiences you possess that some how metaphysically ground/sufficiently explain their existence/natures but have distinguishable natures of their own.substantivalism

    Well, hi there, I haven't been active on this forum much lately, and haven't noticed your posts before. But this is a pretty good one, although you could include a few more line breaks.

    I would say that your depiction of what the materialist and idealist debate is about is a little idiosyncratic. I mean, I don't recall any texbook philosopher referring to the 'true nature of ideal experiences'. The way that the traditional philosophers conceived it was that 'the ideal' was not an experience, as such, but what was 'grasped by the intellect' (where 'intellect' is a translation of the Greek 'nous'.) So in the idealist tradition, the form, idea, or essence of a particular was what made something what it is, and the intellect/nous was what enabled the rational mind to understand the forms, and therefore see the essence of things - to see what things truly are.

    That is very much the attitude of Platonic-Aristotelian dualism, matter-form dualism, which also found expression in Aquinas and thereafter in scholastic philosophy.

    Cartesian dualism - the dualism of matter and mind, rather than form and matter, drastically changed philosophy. Descartes is often taught as the ‘first modern philosopher’. Descartes, Galileo, Newton, and several other seminal figures were at the basis of modern philosophy. An important point about Descartes was his conception of mind or spirit as ‘a thinking thing’ - res cogitans. This tends to make of mind or spirit something objectively existing (or not, depending on your persuasion). Galileo emphasised that the primary attributes of bodies were those which could be mathematically measured and quantified. You can see how that became a fundamental philosophical attitude in modern philosophy. Spirit or mind began to be conceived as ‘the ghost in the machine’ (and God as a ghost in his own Universe.)

    It is around this time that the now-familiar duality of mind and matter began to emerge. That is why most of us are ‘post-Cartesian’, whether we know it or not. Those ideas have become so ingrained in our cultural rubric that they supply the terms in which the whole problem is thought about.

    That is the kind of analysis I would suggest as a starting point.
  • Wayfarer
    22.5k
    Oh, and one more point. The meaning of ‘substance’ in philosophy is quite different to its meaning in ordinary language. ‘Substatia’ was the Latin term chosen by translators for Aristotle’s ‘ouisia’, a word which in many respects is much nearer to our ‘being’ than ‘stuff’. A ‘substance’ was ‘that in which attributes inhere’ - a classic example being that Socrates is an instance of the substance Man, whose eyes happen to be blue. So ‘being a man’ is the substance, and blueness of the eyes is an attribute. With the shift to modernity, the notion of ‘substance’ likewise underwent a profound but implicit change in meaning. See https://iep.utm.edu/substanc/ and also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_theory
  • substantivalism
    270
    You can't expect definitive answers to your questions. Remember that we are in the philosophical field.

    Anyway, my answer:

    Two types of materialism are often proposed: metaphysical and epistemological. My option is different --although close to the second-- : I defend a materialism without matter. My definition of materialism is based on Wittgenstein's familiy-resemblance. A semantic perspective, at least.
    I suggest abandoning the search for something called "matter" and focusing on this question:
    What is called "materialism" in the different branches of knowledge?

    This leads to energy and mass in physics; to biochemical processes in biology; to the brain and behavior in psychology; to productive forces in history; to empiricism in epistemology.

    All these options are similar in that they are opposed to supernatural: God, the spirit, the ideal. In short, materialism is the thesis of a unique world at hand.
    David Mo

    Not exactly a definite answer but a collection of answers.

    Intriguing perspective. . . I wouldn't have thought to dive right into the semantic end but here we are. I've been more interested as of late into process philosophy which deals with this substance disagreement by dissolving it rather robustly. You on the other hand consider semantic considerations first which is a fairly wonderful take on this.

    I don't think we need to break our heads on the definition of "physical". Only recognize that thoughts aren't the same as, say, a pencil or a tree. No matter, how one defines "physical" or its antithesis "immaterial" we won't have a good enough reason to put thoughts in the same category of pencils or trees or brains. That's what I think anyway. What say you?TheMadFool

    So are our experiences of the tree and imagined version of the tree completely different substances? That the difference in experience we possess with them warrants a rather significant distinguishing of their natures?

    The way that the traditional philosophers conceived it was that 'the ideal' was not an experience, as such, but what was 'grasped by the intellect' (where 'intellect' is a translation of the Greek 'nous'.) So in the idealist tradition, the form, idea, or essence of a particular was what made something what it is, and the intellect/nous was what enabled the rational mind to understand the forms, and therefore see the essence of things - to see what things truly are.Wayfarer

    I'm not claiming this is what you are claiming but how would they know (those philosophers) when you've found the essence and all of it contained in our experience or mental processes? How did they know that what made these entirely what they are may not have much to do with the outward appearance we pride ourselves on always noticing. We experience something but it would be rather jutting to say i've experienced therefore everything that specifically this is and not merely a part of it.

    Oh, and one more point. The meaning of ‘substance’ in philosophy is quite different to its meaning in ordinary language. ‘Substatia’ was the Latin term chosen by translators for Aristotle’s ‘ouisia’, a word which in many respects is much nearer to our ‘being’ than ‘stuff’. A ‘substance’ was ‘that in which attributes inhere’ - a classic example being that Socrates is an instance of the substance Man, whose eyes happen to be blue. So ‘being a man’ is the substance, and blueness of the eyes is an attribute.Wayfarer

    I understand substance as that which adheres properties to it or grounds them basically the "substance versus bundle" issue. Though, the substance of something and all its properties (monadic as well as relational) are hard to experientially distinguish especially when the substance of something is directly to be known. Properties are rather easily made aware among my intellect or daily waking awareness but foundational substances i'm more unsure.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    So are our experiences of the tree and imagined version of the tree completely different substances? That the difference in experience we possess with them warrants a rather significant distinguishing of their natures?substantivalism

    All that I can say is that, going with your example of trees, there's a difference between trees and thoughts of trees. If not then, every time you thought of a tree a real tree would be inside your brain/body. I wonder... :chin:
  • David Mo
    960
    Intriguing perspective. . . I wouldn't have thought to dive right into the semantic end but here we are. I've been more interested as of late into process philosophy which deals with this substance disagreement by dissolving it rather robustly. You on the other hand consider semantic considerations first which is a fairly wonderful take on this.substantivalism

    I'm not at all original about this. Gilbert Ryle already did it with mind. The Concept of Mind, a fascinating book.

    I believe that materialism is not a theory that describes a substance, but a mental attitude and a methodological assumption that works differently in different branches of knowledge.
    Therefore, there is no such thing as res extensa and res cogitans. Nor is there any such thing as ghosts. This is (my) materialism.
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    :up:

    (If I'd read more than the OP I wouldn't have bothered posting because your position - glad I'd found Ryle back in the day too! - essentially converges with my own.)

    In fact it's rather intriguing that the notion of physicalism/materialism has changed in such a large way from being a specific pet ontological assumption about what makes up reality (Lucretius, Descartes, Newton, with their ethers or atoms) to what ever entities happen to be indispensable to a specific scientific theorysubstantivalism
    I see nothing wrong with this development -transition (or translation) from a metaphysical to methodological approach (especially in so far as the latter is criteriologically framed/structured by the former).

    From old thread discussions, excerpts of my 'anti-idealist, anti-supernaturalist, anti-nonphysicalist/immaterialist' speculative commitments:

    Atomism - pre-Hobbes, Gassendi, La Mettrie, d'Holbach, Feuerbach "materialism" - includes 'void' as well as 'atoms'.180 Proof
    I've always interpreted the combinatorial aspect of 'Swirling & Swerving-Atoms-In/(Of?)-Void' as information, or the 'physical measure' of the information content of whatever (i.e. comes-to-be, or continues-to-be, or ceases-to-be) happens.180 Proof
    Methodological, not metaphysical, materialism no doubt is the worst, least true, intellectual commitment made in human cultural history, except, of course, for all the others tried so far in the last three plus millennia vis-à-vis progressively disclosing how the world (which includes subjects-in-the-world ... as opposed to shibboleth "rational subjects" or "transcendental egos" or "immaterial souls" etc) works.180 Proof
  • Gregory
    4.7k
    Plato thought our world was a shadow. Aristotle said no, there are definite discrete substances all about us. Hegel wrote that Plato was the first scientifically minded philosopher.

    So what is a book? Is it energy? What is energy? Does energy display force or is force just atoms letting you know they are there? If you put your hand in front of a fan you can feel force, or are you feeling the atoms of the fan? What matter is is not settled in philosophy.

    I see the main question on this subject as whether we create the world or the world creates us. What that world is, and what are we, are the eternal questions that we may never have an answer for
  • David Mo
    960
    Methological, not metaphysical, materialism no doubt is the worst, least true, intellectual commitment made in human cultural history,180 Proof

    Do you can explain this, please?
    What "methological" is and why is the worst?
  • 180 Proof
    15.3k
    Do you can explain this, please?What "methological" is and why is the worst?David Mo
    Typo. Corrected now re: methodological.

    Referring to 'materialism as a methological (or metaphysical) position' I wrote "worst except, of course, for all the others tried so far ..." paraphrasing Churchill's ironic remark

    ... democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time ...
  • bert1
    2k
    ... democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time ...

    Yeah, this is frequently misquoted. What he actually said was:

    ... panpsychism is the worst theory of consciousness except for all those other theories that have been tried from time to time ...
  • tim wood
    9.3k
    but how would they know (those philosophers)substantivalism
    Fatal error, here, to suppose that they knew, or that knowledge, in any modern sense, had anything to do with it. If you're looking for that "knowledge" you're in any or all of the positions Kant sketched here:

    "To know what questions may reasonably be asked is already a great and necessary proof of sagacity and insight. For if a question is absurd in itself and calls for unnecessary answers, it not only brings disgrace to the person raising it, but may prompt an incautious listener to give absurd answers, thus presenting, as the ancients said, the laughable spectacle of one person milking a he-goat, and another holding the sieve underneath.”

    He used the image at least three times.
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/2103270?seq=1
    And it's clear that among other things he had in mind questions about immaterial substances.

    If a sculptor carves a statue of a person, one might ask if all people look like the statue - a foolish question. Philosophers are in a sense sculptors of ideas. To suggest their ideas are, or represent, knowledge is a species of that foolishness. The world itself is there to be known by anyone according to their respective lights - including chipmunks and fish. Philosophy, however, is an interpretive act of understanding, and these two, interpretation and understanding, by their essential nature, are removed from the world itself and are something imposed on or over it. It can resemble knowledge, but at best is a guide to it, not being the thing itself. When not best, it can point away from knowledge. There is much of the latter, little of the former.
  • David Mo
    960
    paraphrasing Churchill's ironic remark180 Proof

    I see.
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