Lol. It's a global pandemic. I mean I'd be the first to say there's problems here but.. come on now.

If everyone in the playground has the flu the bigger guy is still gonna be stronger. Again strength should be used properly however that's a discussion for another day.

You didn't look at the article.

A sharp article, a saying of things that need to be said, more than anything novel or new, but not the less for that. Two unravelings - more, but at least two: the unraveling of an illusion, revealing the underlying reality that was always there. And this may have an overall salutary effect around the world as other countries look around and reassess their own circumstances and realities. But in this, one reality that was never an illusion, gross US military power. That power has been a protective umbrella since 1945. Too often abused and misused, but a part of the machinery that has kept a larger piece, even as there are lesser wars. The new reality does mean that that military has to bear more of the weight in terms of geo-political influence, replacing lost regard, respect, friendship, and alliances, and that is not a good thing. But it appears the Chinese are content for the time to settle for security and stability than military adventurism.

The other unraveling a real unraveling and one that comprises among other things the breaking out through the skin of various diseases of the body politic. These manifestations are not new except perhaps in their virulence. The US has never been the paragon of moral rectitude it's claimed for itself, but now it seems to have inverted most of those values. As the article points out. We're not merely lapsed, we're become evil, realizing the latent devils of our national potential for evil. And this imo is truly dangerous.

It seems all Americans shall have to make their own "walk to Canossa" for redemption. One start is to tax the American public so that America can pay its bills. In my opinion that rate should be 99% of all personal wealth in excess of, say, $10,000,000, and 99% of all income in excess of $1,000,000/year. Or something like. Nominal tax rates were high after WW2 to pay for that war; and we're in no less a war now - even a greater one - though of a different kind.

Second is a restructuring of education. The US effectively stopped educating citizens c. 1960, give or take. There are a number of things citizens should know both as citizens and as educated persons. And in 2020, we don't.

Third imo is universal conscription. All persons, 30 months of mandatory military training/civil service, that is, both, concurrently.

Fourth - you get the idea. Re-establishment of civil values and virtues.

And absolutely none of this happens until and unless Trump is out and justice imposed and thereby re-established. And so forth.

Any good? It's an ill-wind that blow no one. My own bias is that "interesting" times are opportunities for interesting and possibly great achievements. One hopes.

The nation that defeated smallpox and polio, and led the world for generations in medical innovation and discovery, was reduced to a laughing stock as a buffoon of a president advocated the use of household disinfectants as a treatment for a disease that intellectually he could not begin to understand. — The Article

:cry: :angry: :yikes:

The Rolling Stone article is quite a laundry list of dirty linen. I'll speak to Covid 19, with a local application. That first:

Minnesota and Minneapolis have a good track record of economic stability and progressive policy that has stood us in good stead. On May 25, we began a high-speed unravelling which has left holes in our reindeer knit sweaters. The rioting, arson, looting, and demonstrating that happened after Mr. Floyd was killed owed a great deal to a lack of cogent policy and strong leadership.

Things turned really bad when the police abandoned the Third Precinct building. I'm sure the cops felt picked on, being the target of 3 days of demonstrations, but really: why would quite adequately armed police back off from a not particularly large demonstrating crowd? What the police demonstrated (disingenuously, actually) was a sickly unwillingness to use force to protect a $10,000,000 city asset (the cost of the building which was torched).

Their precinct abandonment was more or less accurately interpreted as, "Hey -- the police are gone; it's open season!" Within a few hours of the police withdrawal, the riot started, along with the arson, burglary, and general wrecking. It was a colossal failure of leadership within the Police Department, and within the (pretty much liberal) city government. Not only the police left, but so did the fire department--whose fire suppressing capacity was sorely needed. Hundreds of millions of dollars of damage was done in just a few hours.

COVID-19

The failure to mount an effective public health response to Covid-19 was the result - again - of the absence of a cogent plan and effective leadership. What happened in the United States is the direct result of "getting government off our backs" as the conservatives like to say. Trump certainly didn't have to lead the charge. There is an agency (CDC) well stocked with people quite capable of responding to pandemic and epidemic disease, but they have to be unimpeded in their exercise of public health measures. They were VERY MUCH impeded and interfered with.

We have been here before. When AIDS appeared under another semi-demented conservative president, something similar happened at the federal level: inept action or no action at all, and a lack of cogent policy. By the time the government came to terms with the fact of AIDS it was way too late to stop it. It took 15 years (1981 to 1996) to come up with a reasonably effective and tolerable treatment.

Same thing in 2020: Trump has (apparently) acknowledged that Covid-19 is a real problem. But with 5 million cases in the country and 162,000 deaths here, nothing that could or should have been done in the beginning will be effective now. We are in even more uncharted territory, currently pinning a lot of hope on the as yet non-existent safe and effective vaccine.

Bad leadership and stupidity is entirely sufficient to cause unravelling.

mandatory military training — tim wood

enormous step in entirely the writing direction

The US has never been the paragon of moral rectitude it's claimed for itself — tim wood

Lol. Sure. Just let subversives redefine everything and other people do what they want to control your whole life. See this is the cancer- no offense personally just the idea. The Constitution is simple, irrefutable. Doesn't matter if people who are diametrically opposed to the American ideal have controlled. directed or still control and direct the United States. People die, things get better. Unfortunately this pandemic is precisely what people need to realize this truth. "Accept reality" people will tell you. Yet- they will never accept that reality (what they refer to is really circumstance as a matter of fact) can change! And always has. Why would it not continue to do so? Because people tell you otherwise, usually in a threatening manner? Your choice guy. Always has been.

The free world is losing it’s meal ticket. The elites are watching their power wane. No more free rides.

The elites are watching their power wane. — NOS4A2

That proves there's nothing "elite" about someone who.. just happens to be more fortunate than you lol. It's called circumstance or- hopefully- hard work paying off. So. I realize it's human(?) nature to hate another who has more regardless of why but I mean let's watch this video and hopefully chill out some. Otherwise just follow the law and you'll be fine. Or at least not invoke the true Law. Any further.



And beyond that. Do you really want 100% of your effort to literally be worth nothing as far as improving your livelihood? You'll say that on a computer in a nice house with a doctor nearby but I doubt you'll trade what you have and the way you live now for living like cavemen did? You signed up for it dude get over it. You literally wouldn't exist without the system that lets you criticize it so. Perhaps you should appreciate it more.

Things turned really bad when the police abandoned the Third Precinct building. I'm sure the cops felt picked on, being the target of 3 days of demonstrations, but really: why would quite adequately armed police back off from a not particularly large demonstrating crowd? What the police demonstrated (disingenuously, actually) was a sickly unwillingness to use force to protect a $10,000,000 city asset (the cost of the building which was torched). — Bitter Crank

So, BC, if the police move to enforce order and dispersed the protesters to protect the precinct, wouldn't that have been instantly called 'police brutality'? So - if they abandon, it's a failure on their part, if they protect it, well, that's a failure too.

Nice. A heavy hitter member posts a Rolling Stone article, and it doesn't get moved to the lounge. Quite a high quality post.

The “elite” have proven they are not equipped to govern. All they can do is talk, and as such, can only sing lullabies about this or that while they delegate the decision-making to “experts”.

The United States was, I think, the biggest PR firm in the world at one time. But PR politics are over. So It’s no surprise that those who rely most on American military power for their safety and comforts get most worried when it comes asking for compensation.

The rationale, as stated by the mayor, Jacob Frey, is that the police withdrew (on orders from HQ) to avoid a violent confrontation which might result in deaths by gunshots.

The rationale wasn't altogether mistaken. Had the on-duty contingent of police stayed and prevented the mob from entering the precinct station, almost certainly somebody would have gotten hurt -- on both sides. However, the police at the fifth precinct station faced a worse mob 24 hours later which had just torched a bank, post office, filling station, and some other buildings, and they stayed on their roof, fully armed; later (90 minutes or so) they were backed up by a contingent of national guard troops. The 3rd precinct officers could also have been backed up (by the guard, sheriffs, other police officers, or the fire department (people don't like getting wet).

It was a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't kind of situation. While certain elements within the mob led the destruction, the demonstrators as a group played a strong supporting role in the destruction. There had been 3 days worth of "fuck the cops", "cops are killers", and "destroy the police" rhetoric being spoken, graffitied, and chanted. I watched the protestors/mob/rioters, whatever they were, wind themselves up on Wednesday afternoon. By nightfall they were at a fever pitch. THAT is why the police were avoiding a confrontation. Then the burning started.

OK, so I agree that the elite that is running the country has been doing a piss-poor job of it, not just in the last 4 years, but for decades. HOWEVER...

Who are you going to replace that elite with? Are you going to do away with "experts" too?

Running a wealthy, nuclear-armed nation of 320 million people is not something you want to turn over to amateurs. It's a matter of finding the right elite -- which has been done in the past, and can be done again. Most countries are run by elites; the difference among nations is "which elite is in charge?"

One of our central problems is the theology of neoliberalism which is barely able to tolerate half-hearted government, let alone effective, well-run, well-funded, competent government.

The rationale, as stated by the mayor, Jacob Frey, is that the police withdrew (on orders from HQ) to avoid a violent confrontation which might result in deaths by gunshots. — Bitter Crank

‘Let ‘em burn it down, Chief. They’re just kids, after all, AND they’re pissed!’

Just propoganda and sensationalism from a socialist academic.
First sign of journalistic bullshit? Doom mongering and apocalyptic scenarios.
No difference from an old testament elite demagogue
preaching to the masses.
Zero understanding of politics and economics.
The new god is socialism.
Are there no philosophers who believe in Liberty any more? A little bit of pressure and you all rush to the state!?
Feeble.

The measure of wealth in a civilized nation is not the currency accumulated by the lucky few, but rather the strength and resonance of social relations and the bonds of reciprocity that connect all people in common purpose. — Wade Davis

Maybe such a social ethic is where the US lost out.
I'm guessing poor or lack of good, general education is a factor, but that's just conjecture on my part.
US elections always seem to have a disproportional focus on taxes.
I have personally interacted with your "good American Baptist soccer mom" that has the hots for Trump in public (in some cases more or less regardless of what he says and does, by their own admission), seemingly intelligent fools that cite the Constitution to justify trampling COVID-19 health protocols, ... To me, this gives off a whiff of adults that never became adults.

Is there something - anything - positive in this? — Banno

I guess it depends on what the replacement is or will be.
Dominance by the Chinese regime or Russia sure doesn't seem preferable.
I wouldn't count the US out yet, though.

The free world is losing it’s meal ticket. The elites are watching their power wane. No more free rides. — NOS4A2

Oh right, the USA has given the world so much. The extended war against communism demonstrates the exact opposite, the USA has been a taker, not a giver. That's why it has so many enemies in the world today. Oh sorry NOS4A2, I neglect your qualification of " the world" with "free". It appears like you believe that there is a specific, small class of people in the world, who are allowed to be "free", at the expense of the rest, who are oppressed. Oh how the USA still clings to the ideology of slavery.

Apocryphal has it that there is an ancient Chinese curse: may you live in interesting times.

The United States is no longer a leader among nations.

Is there something - anything - positive in this? — Banno

You're going to let a 5 year period in American history change your mind about America? :chin:

That's like judging Wittgenstein because he beat a pupil in his class and you seem to be fond of Wittgenstein. See Haidbauer Incident

750,000 - Total number of deaths from the Civil War

504 - Deaths per day during the Civil War

2.5 - Approximate percentage of the American population that died during the Civil War

7,000,000 - Number of Americans lost if 2.5% of the American population died in a war today

We got a ways to go yet before we reach any place that America hasn't already been, and recovered from. 150 years ago may seem like an eternity to you young folks, but a third of that time has passed just since I was your age. So, the Civil War was three life times ago, more or less.

What's happening today is that mass media is now ever present around the clock in every little corner of our lives, so the yelling that's been going on since the founding of the republic is greatly amplified.

So we should start worrying when? Or start doing something about it when? Let's see, late January to early August, call it seven months? 162,000 dead. 730,000 world-wide dead. Good thing Covid is more a musket than a minnie-ball rifle. Another number: US military dead, WW2, 1939-945, 407,316.

Conclusion: world war! But in this case, the enemy is not over there, but here and everywhere. But you're right, the Appalachians will endure. An additional point, or numbers: combined US gun and traffic deaths per year about 72,000. If we can not care about those, it's not that much of a stretch to disregard Covid. Yes?

its the death of the Idea of freedom itself, the death of the ways of the enlightenment,
America isn't free, or a good country, but it stood for such, it was a corrupt symbol for freedom, and sadly it was the only, and when the American era ends, another shall begin, full of totalitarianism, and Slavery.
the world's shadow would be cast on freedom, as the world itself loses its meaning, and everything around it starts to decay.
does this mean America dying is good or bad? it's both.

Apocryphal has it that there is an ancient Chinese curse: may you live in interesting times.

The United States is no longer a leader among nations.

Is there something - anything - positive in this? — Banno

You can enjoy the wonderful decadence of the decline of the US then, Banno.

Yet should we remind ourselves that Oswald Spengler wrote his Decline of the West in 1918-1922, a hundred years ago?

The social, political, and military chaos of the 60s dwarfs anything happening today. We got past that. We'll get past this too.

The American era will not end until the people of the world decide they'd like to be ruled by Chinese communists.

Many of you here are quite young, and thus you don't remember that at one time the Soviet Union was seen to be the invincible force which would inevitably dominate the planet blah blah blah etc etc. Didn't happen. America held them in check until they collapsed under their own dead weight.

I discern in your thinking flavors of passivity and pre-destination. But we're all in the churn, and what happens is the result of that process of dynamism. The race that was run yesterday was run yesterday, and it was run. Today's - and tomorrow's - will each have to be run in its turn. And no option of passivity: not to run is to run.

If this sounds too "philosophical," I refer you disclaimers on investments, "Past results are no guarantee of future performance." The results of the past are static and illusive. The processes of the past may be useful, but in that case need be understood, and no such comprehensive understanding that would know the future has yet been attained.

The social, political, and military chaos of the 60s dwarfs anything happening today. We got past that. We'll get past this too. — Hippyhead

58,220 American casualties of the Vietnam War. Three assassinations of US leaders, including POTUS. Rioting, murders of black civil rights participants, murders of demonstrating students. The rise of cults. Then Watergate . . .

I agree. We'll get past this. At the time, in the midst of the Cold War, it seemed America was falling apart at the seams.

Who are you going to replace that elite with? Are you going to do away with "experts" too?

I don’t think expertise and “eliteness” can be measured by formal credentials. Rather, I think positions of power and influence should be open to anyone of any class, so long as they possess the abilities and competence. I believe that until now the elite have ensured a monopoly over positions of power by teaching a certain culture through the public education system (the hidden curriculum), forcing others to acquire the credentials to compete in a subordinate job market and economy. In this way, elite institutions have remained closed to members of different classes and belief systems. We need to diversify, and not just in the way people look.

As they stare into the mirror and perceive only the myth of their exceptionalism, Americans remain almost bizarrely incapable of seeing what has actually become of their country.

Seems to be so, looking at many of the posts hereabouts.

I listened to an interview with George Friedman last night. He believes that somewhere in a garage in middle America, the new Henry Ford or Bill Gates is planning the resurgence of "merica.

His faith is touching. I suppose time will tell.

I don’t think expertise and “eliteness” can be measured by formal credentials. Rather, I think positions of power and influence should be open to anyone of any class, so long as they possess the abilities and competence. — NOS4A2

So... what makes something an ability. Competence is basic coherence. Why is it an ability of any use if everyone can do it. That makes someone elite- in a way. So you want, and I'm going to hope you're from whatever country we're talking about and not acting under the auspices of another, the most qualified and crucial positions such as medicine, defense, technology, science, education, etc... to be replaced with just anyone who knows how to get dressed in the morning? Erm... yeah that's a big no. lol

Edit: Factoring in your argument that the majority of a country (everywhere btw) represents the most successful positions with your assertion (that is common knowledge) people prefer their own, you're saying they will systematically turn down or otherwise favor people of their own color or creed over equally qualified minorities? Yeah.. see now it's a debate. Reminds me of the whole immigrant fiasco. If there's all these problems and this is such a better place... let the army go in and clean it up so it's good and then they'll leave. Cover minimum costs, just enough to break even (gotta feed the boys somehow), and that's that. But no somehow solving a humanitarian crisis would now be a humanitarian crisis in and of itself. Somehow. It's crazy man. It's either better here or better there and if you want to come here while not wanting it to be better all around or in your homeland at least it's.. kinda selfish really. That said. Dunno how bad the corruption is here. These other places could be the last bastions of freedom and we should want to be there. lol, it's a toss up really

The social, political, and military chaos of the 60s dwarfs anything happening today. We got past that. We'll get past this too. — Hippyhead

And the British got past losing their Empire too. Yeah, London was a nice place at least few years ago.

I say everything is well as long as the dollar has it's status and Americans can create money that others will take. The most dangerous idea to America is the following idea: "Wait a minute, we don't have to have a single currency replacing the dollar, we'll use a basket of currencies with each currency (including the US dollar) noted by the volume of use of the currency in actual business transactions and have computer algorithms handle that basket for us."

That would be the death knell for the present style US government spending. And once you have to equal spending to tax income more or less, kiss your Superpower military bye bye.