because they're stuck to each other, share the same experiences — TheMadFool
There's an infinite list of scenarios where one twin on one side has slightly different experiences than the other. — Outlander
Brains are chaotic physical systems — Pfhorrest
experiences of the two brains are ever so slightly different — Pfhorrest
You are equivocating with the term 'function', using it here to mean what seems like a more generalized anatomical function [e.g. basal ganglia has x function, visual cortex has y function(s)], which is not directly relevant to talk about minds.
What's relevant to any physicalist notion of mind is the function of the microarchitecture, the numbers and strengths of synapses and how that impacts information processing. You are completely side-stepping this in your discussion which I am unsure why. — aporiap
In essence, the two brains of conjoined twins are identical — TheMadFool
I imagine that if I had to share limbs with my brother, we would have fought even more than we did. There's a competitive element in people's relations, which has to be taken into account. Some twins want to differentiate themselves from their brother/sister.These twins, because they're stuck to each other, share the same experiences — TheMadFool
Brains are chaotic physical systems — Pfhorrest
How do you know this? — TheMadFool
Snowball effect. — Outlander
Snowball effect. — Outlander
Nope. In the previous lines you argued they aren't, that they differ in their 'fine structure'. — Olivier5
Some twins want to differentiate themselves from their brother/sister. — Olivier5
but given the ridiculous complexity of brains, that seems a safe bet. — Pfhorrest
which hasn't been observed. — TheMadFool
Conjoined twins share the same universe in terms of ideas and the physical environment. — TheMadFool
Were it true that the brain experiences something like the snowball effect — TheMadFool
Au contraire, there are more similarities between minds of different people than there are dissimilarities. Explain that. — TheMadFool
I am sympathetic to the broad thrust of your argument but find this particular premise a bit shaky.I also explained that the differences are irrelevant to brain function. — TheMadFool
Honestly I'd consider a bet where if anyone who reads this or ever will who has actually met/known/or seen a conjoined twin in person wins/loses $100. For each. It's beyond rare. That's not really a standard for assumption. — Outlander
How is that different from siblings in strict, if not unrealistic (yet plausible) environments? — Outlander
I'm confused here. There is no observable experience or phenomenon in human existence that doesn't involve.. the human brain. I mean. It's not some non-existent term I made up based on nothing. — Outlander
It's not that bizarre really. Say a few people share a dorm room with the same computer ie. operating system. It's the same base when opened fresh out of the box. Yet, through time, each becomes customized based on the preferences of the individual. — Outlander
So the 'large structure' argument works for any pair of brains, not just for twins. It doesn't really cut it here, it's not specific to any twins. — Olivier5
The brain is, if you recall your high school biology, the organ that coordinates all the other organs - far removed from a chaotic system. — TheMadFool
The brain is, if you recall your high school biology, the organ that coordinates all the other organs - far removed from a chaotic system. — TheMadFool
No different I must admit but so what? I chose conjoined twins to make my case because they're the closest we can get to two brains being physically identical and having similar experiences which, according to the physicalism and nature-nurture theory, should've caused conjoined twins to have similar, if not identical, minds. — TheMadFool
think you’re still not understanding the technical meaning of “chaos” being employed here: — Pfhorrest
A lot of that high school stuff is now very dated. When an organ is transplanted, the nerve supply can not be rejoined, but the organ nevertheless is able to function. So it can not be said that the brain is controlling it. The organ seems to know what to do and how. — Pop
I can accept that the physical environment (temperature, humidity, air pressure, etc.) can vary quantitatively in ways that chaos in brains becomes possible a la the classic butterfly effect. However, if the physical environment has such an effect on the mind, we should be seeing a clear gradation in mind-types (gradation in beliefs, attitudes, etc.) with latitude, temperature being the most well-defined variable in physical environment. What I'm saying is the minds of people living in hot places should be different from the minds of people living in cold places. I haven't come across any scientific study that makes such a claim. Perhaps something worth investigating. — TheMadFool
You seem to be thinking of the brain as though it were a gas, with its processes predictably correlating with the things that you list (temperature, humidity, air pressure, etc). That has nothing to do with chaotic things like the butterfly effect; in fact such a correlation is contrary to them. The brain as a chaotic system would be one in which, say, a single sodium ion either does or does not make contact with a neuron because of some small physical difference, and then that neuron does or does not fire in accordance with that, and then all of the neurons that would fire in response to that one firing either do or do not fire in accordance with that, and then all the neurons that they would trigger to fire either do or do not in accordance with that, and pretty soon you've got a vastly different state of which neurons are firing, and so what the brain overall is doing, all because some trivial physical effect either did or didn't inhibit the motion of a single sodium ion. — Pfhorrest
You mean to say that if someone were to introduce me to atheism/theism, my response to it depends on variations in sodium ion concentration and sodium channel activation — TheMadFool
if two brains can be said to be physically identical then it doesn't get more identical than conjoined twins — TheMadFool
influenced tremendously by tiny choices you make, tiny variations in your mood — Pfhorrest
Please explain specifically what you mean by function and operate. Like I said, if you mean generalized function of a specific brain tissue like olfactory bulb, amygdala or visual cortex, then this is just a strawman because these things are not relevant-- i.e. it would be like saying the hard disk of computer A functions the same as computer B [i.e. they store memory], thusIf the brain's fine structure determines brain function, we should observe a proportionate variability in the way brains operate. This isn't true. — TheMadFool
You mean to say that beliefs are dependent on one's mood. — TheMadFool
The brain is highly structured, and not chaotic in the sense that people are predictable to a fair degree. They sleep at certain times, they have certain habits such as tea or coffee, certain opinions that are so we'll rooted that no amount of conversation can change them, etc. This is not typical of a chaotic system. Too predictable. — Olivier5
Please explain specifically what you mean by function and operate. Like I said, if you mean generalized function of a specific brain tissue like olfactory bulb, amygdala or visual cortex, then this is just a strawman because these things are not relevant-- i.e. it would be like saying the hard disk of computer A functions the same as computer B [i.e. they store memory], thus
the variability of the microstructure [i.e. the orientation of magnets on the hard disk, which is the physical representation of the computer memory] doesn't matter for what the hard disk does. But it does matter. — aporiap
If by function, you mean the specific output of a person's brain tissue, then the function does vary considerably. The output of your visual cortex when viewing a tasty, gushing burger is completely different to the output of my visual cortex when viewing a chair. The output of my amygdala after seeing a picture of Natalie Portman is not the same as the output of my amygdala after discovering a spider crawling up my arm. And those outputs are different in other people. — aporiap
Not directly. But they're dependent on previous beliefs, which are dependent on previous experiences, which are dependent on previous choices, which are dependent on previous moods. It's not as simple as you want to make it out, so as to easily refute it. — Pfhorrest
So, is it fair to say that the belief your espousing in this thread is ultimately mood-based? Why are you trying to argue then? — TheMadFool
Moods are just an example of a subtle non-rational brain process that can go on to influence your life in the future. They’re not at all integral to the point I’m making. — Pfhorrest
For another example, say you’re on a walk one day and at a fork in the road you have to go left or right, without any real reason for either. One of those choices will lead you to meet a person who will become a short-time acquaintance of yours through whom you will meet someone else who will introduce you to a new circle of friends among whom you will meet your future spouse with whom you will have many deep conversations that will heavily influence your opinions on things like theism or atheism. If you turned the other way on that walk, your future state of mind would have turned out completely differently. And whether you felt inclined to turn left or right is the kind of thing that could be influenced by tiny physical differences, or more likely built up to by an accumulation of consequences of tiny physical differences in the same way that your future beliefs were built up to by an accumulation of differences based on whether you turned left or right. — Pfhorrest
I understand the significance of differences in experience for how we turn out to be down the road but conjoined twins don't have that luxury. They're stuck to each other, remember? — TheMadFool
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