I think we already agree that humans and zombies are functionally equivalent but that zombies lack phenomenal consciousness...
— Luke
Not because such circumstances are actually possible, but rather simply because we can assert that they are. — creativesoul
I think the duality is not between mind and matter in that sense, but that instead intelligence, or reason, or what was known in the earlier philosophical tradition as nous, is 'that which perceives things as they truly are'. But, taking a leaf from nondualist philosophy of mind, this faculty is itself never the object of perception, and as today's empiricism wishes to ground itself wholly in objects of perception, then as far as it is concerned, this is a faculty that can't be accounted for, or doesn't really exist. There are of course many open questions left by that account, but considering the nature of the subject, this is preferable ... — Wayfarer
Let's discuss either your position or mine. Attempting to cover both simultaneously is asking for trouble, especially when our respective positions use the same term in remarkably different ways... — creativesoul
I'm a bit disappointed. I was looking forward to reading your answer to the question I posed. Now, it seems that there are more pressing issues rearing their ugly heads... — creativesoul
...Correlation, as I see it, is the process of establishing a mutual relationship or connection between two things... ...The process as a structural relation exists without any resulting ‘correlation’ being manifest as such. When one is manifest, it informs the system’s most complex organisational structure, whether it’s as a causal correlation or a conceptual one.
— Possibility
Causal physical systems/interactions ARE correlations.
— Possibility
The above doesn't work(it's incoherent, self contradictory, and/or an equivocation fallacy). It also presupposes meaning at the subatomic level of existence, or it presupposes that not all information is meaningful. — creativesoul
Yet this tiny, trivial difference leads you to believe that zombies cannot exist. — Luke
In what sense does it have phenomenal consciousness at all if it “doesn’t have any perception, memory, feelings, thoughts, dreams, anything like that”? — Luke
I think we already agree that humans and zombies are functionally equivalent but that zombies lack phenomenal consciousness, so I’m not sure of your point here. Is it that there’s a large functional difference between rocks and humans? I don’t see how it’s relevant to phenomenal consciousness. — Luke
The only way I can make sense of this is if you think that our phenomenal consciousness has no causal influence, or that it is an unnecessary appendage to human function. In that case, why do you believe that zombies cannot exist? — Luke
Not much or nothing? It makes all the difference between having and not having phenomenal consciousness. — Luke
Note he says 'Even in the most detailed physical description of matter there is no hint of any function or meaning.' And this applies to physicalism, including yours. — Wayfarer
In what sense does a philosophical zombie lack phenomenal consciousness even though it functionally has perception, memory, feelings, thoughts, dreams, etc? — Pfhorrest
The point is that the difference between a rock without phenomenal consciousness and a rock with phenomenal consciousness is tiny — Pfhorrest
On my account, the only way something could possibly lack phenomenal consciousness would be if it received no input at all -- in which case, not only could it not do all the mental things humans do, but it would effectively vanish from existence, no longer interacting via any of the physical forces. — Pfhorrest
Saying that only humans have a first-person perspective isn't saying that we (or someone) only think of first-person perspectives when humans are involved, it's saying that there's something incorrect about considering the first-person perspective of anything else. — Pfhorrest
I’m not all that capable of spotting incoherences, so you’ll have to help me with this. I consider all information to be meaningful, but only insofar as ‘all possible information’ is both meaningful/meaningless. This I consider to be a self-contradiction at the core of existence.
So, yes - you could say that I do presuppose meaning at the sub-atomic level of existence, but not with any certain or objective sense of definability. There is no distinction at the sub-atomic level between meaning, value/potential, action/change, substance, shape or distance. An electron correlates with a proton at a probabilistic distance, which may result in atomic structure. Meaning for a sub-atomic particle, though (in my view), is an arbitrary binary relation between existence and non-existence: matter/anti-matter. — Possibility
So, what does a rock with phenomenal consciousness have that a rock without phenomenal consciousness doesn't? — Luke
You've told us that the difference is not "any perception, memory, feelings, thoughts, dreams, anything like that”, but this is exactly the type of thing that I would say that phenomenal consciousness is. — Luke
Aren't you conflating phenomenal consciousness with physics more generally? — Luke
my kind of physicalism is all about function, and not exactly meaning per se, but information. — Pfhorrest
Those signals are both the occasions of our phenomenal experience (the input into our functions), and the literal force of our behaviors upon other things (they are literally the force-carrying particles, mostly photons, that mediate our interactions with all other things, and so the only real output of our functions). — Pfhorrest
Why did Bill get on the bus? Because he wanted to visit his grandmother and knew the bus would take him there. No other answer will do. If he hated the sight of his grandmother, or if he knew the route had changed, his body would not be on that bus. For millennia this has been a paradox. Entities like `wanting to visit one's grandmother' and `knowing the bus goes to Grandma's house' are colorless, odorless, and tasteless. But at the same time they are *causes* of physical events, as potent as any billiard ball clacking into another.
The computational theory of mind resolves the paradox. It says that beliefs and desires are information, incarnated as configurations of symbols. The symbols are the physical states of bits of matter, like chips in a computer or neurons in the brain. They symbolize things in the world because they are triggered by those things via our sense organs, and because of what they do once they are triggered. If the bits of matter that constitute a symbol are arranged to bump into the bits of matter constituting another symbol in just the right way, the symbols corresponding to one belief can give rise to new symbols corresponding to another belief logically related to it, which can give rise to symbols corresponding to other beliefs, and so on. Eventually the bits of matter constituting a symbol bump into bits of matter connected to the muscles, and behavior happens. — Steve Pinker
A philosophical zombie has sense organs and can use them in all the ways a real human can, they just don't “really experience” using them. — Pfhorrest
If philosophical zombies do not use sense organs to really experience using them — creativesoul
On my account, a rock with phenomenal consciousness is just an ordinary rock, and a rock without phenomenal consciousness would thereby cease to exist, or else be some kind of phantom rock that’s unresponsive to anything that’s done to it. — Pfhorrest
It seems to me like you just can't manage to separate the concepts of access consciousness and phenomenal consciousness. Those things you list are all functional, access-consciousness things. And that is what I think consciousness in the ordinary sense of the word is all about.
Phenomenal consciousness is just some philosophical nitpicking that's completely beside all of that. — Pfhorrest
And you can't seem to separate the concepts of phenomenal consciousness and physical existence. Phenomenal consciousness is about what it is like to have a particular experience from a first-person perspective. There is no qualitative aspect of experience (or qualia) for a rock. Unless rocks are somehow conscious - in the normal sense of that word (which is not synonymous with bare existence) - then there is nothing it is like to be a rock. Rocks don't have any awareness of their experience or any first-person perspective, so there is no "what it is like" for a rock (e.g. from a rock's perspective). At least, rocks certainly don't exhibit any perspective or awareness that is typically associated with, and often defined as, consciousness. — Luke
The only thing I think rocks have is whatever's left after that is accounted for, which gets called "phenomenal consciousness", but I think has nothing to do with consciousness in the ordinary sense of the word, and is something that is just a fundamental part of what it means for anything to exist: the capacity to receive input from other things, not just to act upon other things. — Pfhorrest
The concept of Biosemiotics requires making a distinction between two categories, the material or physical world and the symbolic or semantic world. — Howard Pattee
Sorry I'm late to the party. Looks like you are being unfairly accused of Magic & Mysticism. I can relate.In this thread I will lay out a hybrid philosophy of mind: one that is eliminativist (nothing has a “mind”) in one sense, panpsychist (everything has a “mind“) in another sense, and emergentist (only some things have a “mind”) in another sense. — Pfhorrest
Mind is a “substance” only in the sense of Spinoza's "Universal Substance", and Aristotle's notion of "Hylomorphism" : Matter + Form (Essence). Hence, Brain + Mind.my physicalist ontology, which straightforwardly rules out the possibility of mental substances, and it is only in that sense that my philosophy of mind is “eliminativist”: — Pfhorrest
Strong Emergentism sounds like Holism, as defined by Jan Smuts. And the mechanism of that seemingly “sudden” emergence is the topic of physical Phase Transition. We know it happens, but not the intermediate steps, from water molecules to ice crystals."strong"emergentism holds some wholes to be truly greater than the sums of their parts, and thus that when certain things are arranged in certain ways, wholly new properties apply to the whole that are not mere aggregates or composites of the properties of the parts. — Pfhorrest
“Arranged in the right way” is what I call "Enformed". The “many details” are stages of enformation that occur as Energy causes physical patterns to change. Some of those changes are thermal, as in thermodynamics. But some result in different physical forms, as in liquid to solid transitions. The “magic” is simply the flow of enforming energy from one pattern of relationships to another. That pattern (form) change is what we call "Causation".consciousness as we ordinarily speak of it is something that just comes about when physical things are arranged in the right way. — Pfhorrest
Yes. The "precursor" of Consciousness is Universal (general) Information which begins as amorphous mental concepts (Plato's Forms) and then becomes physical Enformation in the process of Creation (Big Bang). Since I am not aware of any plausible scientific theory to explain the pre-creation source of Information, I adopted the Religious notion of an eternal BEING with the power to create new beings (G*D). I have no personal experience with that abstract Potential, so it's just a hypothesis to explain the data of the Real World. Enformation (e.g. DNA) is present in the "stuff" (matter) of which humans are built.So when it comes to phenomenal consciousness, either it is wholly absent from the most fundamental building blocks of physical things . . . or else it is present at least in humans, as concluded above, and so at least some precursor of it must be present in the stuff out of which humans are built, — Pfhorrest
I find the notion of sub-atomic particles possessing the attribute of human-like Consciousness, to be absurd. So I prefer to call that proto-mind, simply the "power to Enform" -- to cause Change (energy) -- which causes Emergence (significant change), which ultimately results in suitably complex physical formations as, A> Living Organisms (biological behavior); B> single-cell Experience of environment (touch, proto-experience); C> gradually increasing scope of Awareness (sentience): D> the extension of Aboutness (meaning), and E> finally producing the feedback loop of Self-Awareness, that we know as animal Consciousness. When that level is reached, it gradually expands its sphere of awareness to include Abstractions, which is a key feature of Human Consciousness.Panpsychism most broadly defined says that everything has a mind, . . . proto-experientialism — Pfhorrest
"Phenomenal Consciousness" (inter-relations between phenomena) may be prefigured in the mathematical “relationships” or “links” between imaginary “nodes” in a mathematical field, or between actual physical objects.But in saying that everything has phenomenal consciousness, — Pfhorrest
Yes. A rock is impacted by energy from the environment, and is changed slightly in response, for example, absorbing heat. But that kind of enformation is fleeting and trivial, unless it melts the rock into magma ( a phase transition; a new form or state). By contrast, a human experience is recorded as a memory (en-forms, engrams), which is translated into "first-person" meaning (knowledge), and may then be exported to other humans in words (symbolic information).but that first-person experience needn't amount to much if the thing having the experience is so simple as a rock or atom or electron. — Pfhorrest
I too, think of Reality as a universal Information network, with physical objects at the nodes, and inter-relationships (energy, forces) as the links. But each object (holon) is a network in itself.with the nodes in that web being the objects of reality, each defined by its function in that web of interactions, — Pfhorrest
The only “supernatural thing” in my worldview is whatever preceded the Big Bang as the First Cause, which is literally, and by definition, super-natural. The Cause of something new cannot be its own Effect.but then I also don't think supernatural things are possible or even coherent, — Pfhorrest
Yes, but it's hard to draw a hard line between primitive “experience” and sophisticated “awareness”. Presumably a single-cell organism is defined by having some distinguishing membrane between Self and Environment. But that would be the extent of its self-awareness. Humans, on the other hand, can picture themselves in relation to a much larger context, even a cosmic stage.But "minds" in a more useful and robust sense . . . as subjects have an experience that is heavily of themselves as much as it is of the rest of the world. — Pfhorrest
Yes. That's the problem for those who identify Mind with brain states. Mind is a function of brain states, but a function is the product, not the mechanism itself. The map is not the territory.I hold a view called functionalism, which holds that a mental state is not strictly identical to any particular physical state, — Pfhorrest
In my thesis, I call that universal functionalism EnFormAction : the act of Enforming (verb), and the state of being Informed (noun)."functionalist panpsychism". — Pfhorrest
Yes. A function is described in a map as a set of relations between This and That (ordered pairs). The relationship pattern is the meaning of the map.I hold that the function of an object, the mapping of the inputs it experiences to the behaviors it outputs, — Pfhorrest
I would limit “sentience” to the physical senses, one of which is the sensation of Pain. But the ability to differentiate Reality (as-is) from Ideality (as-if) is a later development of Mind, probably following the emergence of Self-consciousness.The first of these important functions, which I call "sentience", is to differentiate experiences toward the construction of two separate models, one of them a model of the world as it is, and the other a model of the world as it ought to be. — Pfhorrest
Those abstract “patterns” are what is known as Information. The ability to interpret those abstractions into personal meanings, and to use that knowledge for self-interest is the beginning of Intelligence. To use that knowledge for broader interests is the beginning of Wisdom.Sensations are the raw, uninterpreted experiences, like the seeing of a color, or the hearing of a pitch. When those sensations are then interpreted, patterns in them detected, identified as abstractions, that can then be related to each other symbolically, analytically, that is part of the function that I call "intelligence" — Pfhorrest
Sapience = Wisdom. Self-reflective awareness : to put the Self into a larger context.That reflexive function in general I call "sapience", — Pfhorrest
Indicative = symbolic; semiotic.an experience taken as indicative, interpreted into a perception, and accepted by sapient reflection — is what I call a "belief". — Pfhorrest
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