• Dusty of Sky
    65
    I will present a version of Kant’s refutation of idealism. My version has a different structure than Kant’s, but my goal was to make the argument clearer and less dependent on Kant’s other arguments. I conclude that, while the argument proves that we must have a concept of the external world, it does not prove that an external world truly exists. Do you think this is right? Am I being faithful to Kant?

    The basic idea is that we require a concept of the external world in order to discern a temporal order among our perceptions.

    I’ll break the argument down into two sub arguments and a final conclusion. The first sub argument establishes that something other than perception is required to temporally order experience. The second argues that the concept of causality is responsible for the temporal order of experience and that causality must apply to objects external to perception. The final conclusion is that an external world exists consisting of objects external to our perceptions.

    Premise 1: Some experiences consist of an ordered series of moments (let’s call them temporal experiences), and the order of these moments is intrinsic to the experience.
    Premise 2: Perceptions have no intrinsic temporal order.
    Conclusion: Therefore, something in addition to perception is required to explain the order of moments in a temporal experience.

    Let’s look at an example experience to illustrate the argument: I see a leaf fall from a tree. Now I’ll justify each step, starting with premise 1. This experience is temporal because it consists of a number of moments in a particular order: the leaf begins on a branch then descends through the air then lands on the ground. If the order of moments were reversed, I’d see the leaf rise. If the moments were scrambled, I’d see the leaf teleport around. Thus, the nature of this experience (and other temporal experiences) depends not only on the perceptions it contains but on their order. If the order of moments were different, the nature of the experience would be different. Therefore, the order of moments is intrinsic to the experience.

    Here’s the justification for Premise 2: I can imagine my perceptions occurring in any order. I can imagine the leaf rising or teleporting instead of falling. If wore a VR headset, I could perceive the leaf rising or teleporting just as realistically as I saw it falling. Now my perceptions of the leaf at various points in the air happened to occur in a particular order in my experience of seeing the leaf fall. But this order is not intrinsic to the perceptions themselves.

    The above argument is not a formal syllogism, so I’ll fill in the missing steps here. Take this premise: If x has a property y, and x contains a set of elements z, the fact that x contains z does not explain why x has y unless z has y. This seems to make. If a wall is red, and the wall contains bricks, the fact that the wall contains bricks does not explain why the wall is red unless the bricks are red. Now let’s apply this to the argument at hand. If an experience has an intrinsic temporal order, and the experience contains of a set perceptions, then the fact that the experience contains these perceptions does not explain why it has this temporal order unless the perceptions have this intrinsic temporal order. But as premise 2 established that perceptions have no intrinsic temporal order. Thus, the perceptions which an experience contains do not explain the order in which they occur. Therefore, if the temporal order of perceptions has an explanation, the experience must contain something other than perception.

    One might respond by questioning why we need an explanation. Perhaps it is self evident that my perceptions occurred in the order that they did, and I need no explanation. But this is false. If I saw the leaf fall, then the leaf is no longer falling, so I can only know that I saw it fall if I remember having seen it fall. But my memory of having seen the leaf fall is also a temporal experience, and I can only experience this memory one moment at a time. I cannot imagine all the moments contained in the fall of the leaf next to one another and perceive their temporal order immediately. Since I can only perceive the moments in a temporal experience one moment at a time, I can never perceive the temporal order of the moments. At best, I can perceive one moment giving way to the next moment, but never a whole series containing many moments. I would not be able to comprehend the order of the moments in my experience if my experience did not contain something in addition to perception. This is true whether I experience a temporal experience presently or experience a memory of a past temporal experience.

    Here’s the second sub argument
    Premise 3: The order of moments in temporal experience is explained by the concept of causality.
    Premise 4: Causality does not apply to perceptions.
    Conclusion: Therefore, causal principles must apply to objects external to perception.

    Premise 3 makes sense because causality determines the order temporal of moments. I know the leaf on the branch preceded the leaf in the air because the causal order of nature, as I conceive it, precludes the possibility that the leaf floated or teleported up and reattached itself to the branch. If there were something else besides the concept of causality to explain the order of moments in an experience, then it would be unnecessary. We could follow Hume and suppose that the concept of causality is confused. But since perceptions cannot explain temporal order, and nothing else seems to do so, it seems necessary to suppose that I really do conceive of causal principles and use them to temporally order my perceptions. Importantly, these causal concepts are not themselves perceptions. They order perceptions within an experience, but they themselves are of a different nature. Whereas perceptions consist of sensory information, concepts like causal principles seems to consist of an intelligible structure. How I come to understand specific causal principles is another matter.

    Premise 4 is basically the same as premise two. Perceptions can occur in any order, and no causal principle necessitates that one perception follow upon another. The conclusion follows from these two premises straightforwardly.

    The final conclusion is that there must be an external world. This world consists of the objects external to our perceptions. According to Kant, we represent these external objects to ourselves using the concept of substance. We conceive of our perceptions as corresponding to the accidents of these external substances. So the matter of the leaf would be a substance moving in space, and the colors by which we perceive the leaf would correspond to the leafs accidents.

    To sum up the argument, the concept of causality is necessary to explain temporal order, and the concept of external objects is necessary to explain causality.

    Kant argues that the external objects we represent to ourselves need not be at all similar to the external objects which actually exist. The leaf we conceive may be totally different than the-leaf-in-itself. But it seems to me that Kant has failed to prove that external objects actually exist. I think he’s succeeded in proving that we must have concepts of external objects in order to temporally order our experiences, but just because we have concepts of them doesn’t mean they exist. Kant seems to argue that the concepts we employ are mere tools which we use to make our perceptions intelligible. He argues that truth is the agreement between concepts and their objects. So it may be technically and trivially true, according to this definition, that there is an external world, because the concept of substance agrees with the perceptual objects to which we apply it. However, this doesn’t mean that there really are things existing outside and independently of us. Our concept of an external world agrees with perceptions, but it may not correspond to an actual external world.
  • Mww
    4.8k
    But it seems to me that Kant has failed to prove that external objects actually exist.Dusty of Sky

    Failed to prove presupposes the attempt, which Kant had no intention of doing. It is entirely sufficient that the external world be given, as a product of sensibility:

    “...For, otherwise, we should require to affirm the existence of an appearance, without something that appears, which is absurd.....”
    —————

    Kant argues that the external objects we represent to ourselves need not be at all similar to the external objects which actually exist.Dusty of Sky

    Not so sure about that. If the representation is from intuition, then similarity is given from the sensation by which the external objects affects, which makes the assertion false; if the representation is from conception, or even a mere idea, then similarity to extant objects need not be given, re: transcendental objects, but the representation is not of external objects in the first place, which makes the assertion confused.
    —————-

    He argues that truth is the agreement between concepts and their objects.Dusty of Sky

    “....The definition of the word truth, to wit, the accordance of the cognition with its object...”

    It is possible to have a conception that does not proceed to a cognition: think of counting for twenty minutes and you can conceive of arriving at a number at that time span, but you cannot cognize the truth of which number. If you think the succession of numbers contained in a given time, you can cognize the truth of a certain number, but you have technically not counted, but rather, you’ve instituted a judgement on a mathematical construction.

    Concepts.....that which arises spontaneously from the faculty of understanding....cannot in themselves, serve as criterion of truth. The accordance of a concept with its object is a judgement, and the only source of error in this particular speculative epistemology generally, is in fact, the faculty of judgement.
    ————-

    Premise 4: Causality does not apply to perceptions.Dusty of Sky

    Technically correct, insofar as causality suffices as the rule for the succession of moments of perception in time. And while causality is not a perception, it remains applicable to it.

    “...That something happens, then, is a perception which belongs to a possible experience, which becomes real only because I look upon the phenomenon as determined in regard to its place in time, consequently as an object, which can always be found by means of a rule in the connected series of my perceptions....”

    Causality is a category, and while itself transcendentally determined, is always and only empirically applicable. And that to which any category is empirically applicable presupposes a necessary perception, or a possible perception.
    ————

    Am I being faithful to Kant?Dusty of Sky

    Not really, but then......if you’re presenting a theory of your own, with, as you say, a different structure, how could you be? Besides, while an interesting read in itself, the thread title and the body of the opening comment don’t seem to have much to do with each other. Even if......

    The basic idea is that we require a concept of the external world in order to discern a temporal order among our perceptions.Dusty of Sky

    ......is the case, nothing is contained therein sufficient to refute idealism as a doctrine, and certainty doesn’t relate to Kant’s exposition on it, which breaks down the overall doctrine into two specific types, of which only one is refuted. The other being merely.......mmmmm.....frowned upon, shall we say. What I mean is, your body of text is taken from “Analogies of Experience”, but Kant’s refutation of idealism is taken from “Postulates of Empirical Thoughts in General”. I guess I would have liked to see these two connected somehow within the body of the opening text, such as found in A228/B281, which no one unfamiliar with Kantian epistemology would ever ascertain on his own.

    Anyway.....good work.
  • Srap Tasmaner
    4.9k
    Premise 2: Perceptions have no intrinsic temporal order.Dusty of Sky

    I'm afraid my comment is not based in Kant, but what if this is just false? Or, rather, what if it is false given a disambiguation of the word "perception"?

    Suppose you're designing a video game engine. The internal representation of an object might include not just its current position and properties, but its recent short term history. You might fold in every event that affects the physics of the object until that effect has worn off; or you might use a cheaper system that just tracks some amount of history that turns out to be good enough, say the last 2.5 seconds.

    If you were to just directly render these objects onto the screen, then when the player and everything in view is perfectly still, all objects would be sharply defined, but as soon as an object moved, it would be smeared out as it moves, or blurred, or sharp at its instantaneous position but leaving a sort of shadowy trail. And if the player moved, everything would be smeared or blurred or leave a trail.

    You needn't render the entire internal representation and games generally render only the most recent position, even though internally that's only a piece of the real object. What happens on our end so that we perceive motion?

    Psychologists have done experiments to show that we interpret sequentially flashing lights as a single light moving, and we even insist we could see an invisible obstacle that the light goes around if that's what makes sense of changes in the light's "course" (there being no such thing actually).

    These experiments start, like you, from the idea of their being sequences of static perceptions that we somehow link together into the perception of motion, and of course this is the natural way to construct the experiment. But it could also be that internally we represent objects more like the video game engine, with slots for the object's recent history; consciousness then would not be like the sequence of frames of a motion picture, just one complete visual field after another, but more like the visually rendered part of a video game, continually letting you know where objects are and what they're doing, but internally, below the level of your awareness, you might be tracking every object's recent history as well.

    "Perception" could refer either to the taking in of data that updates our model of an object, or to what we experience consciously. That still leaves the temptation to say that the taking in of data is after all exactly like a sequence of of filled visual fields, but it may be possible to resist that temptation.

    *

    Perhaps not exactly on-topic, and I won't be offended if you say so, I just often have this problem with the early moderns that there is so much psychology swirled in with the philosophy I don't always manage to separate the two.

    In my defense, I would ask what is the justification for Premise 2, and the assumption that experience is a sequence of static moments of experience, separable at least in theory, except that it's the way empiricists were talking at the time? Is it a psychological assumption or a philosophical one? Is it intrinsic to our concept of experience? Or does it derive from a particular conception of time, which is in turn an "ingredient" of experience in the one sense (sequence) but not the other (moments)? Does experience mean whatever we are aware of?
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