Because democracy has to come from the society itself. The own domestic elite of a country have to be for democracy. The struggle for power has to happen at the election booth and the result has to be accepted by all.
Actually no. The Germans, the Austrians and the Japanese were OK with the Allied occupation.This is actually a good sign, not a train wreck. The Iraqi politicians know they are free to say whatever they want about the US. And the Iraqi people are free to say whatever they want too. — Paul Edwards
Every society or nation has a power elite. The top administrators, the top politicians, the very rich people, the cultural elite and those in the media. This isn't at all a fixed group of people and is very difficult to define just who actually is in this group.That is an interesting take. I'm not sure how you measure "domestic elite" and why you ascribe such importance to them. — Paul Edwards
If you ask any person, do they want democracy and peace in their country, hardly anybody will say no. Yet just as I made the joke about the UN occupying the US to bring social cohesion to the society, things aren't so simple to do in real life.But for starters, the Iraqi people do not speak with one voice. When you say it has to "come from the society itself", many Iraqis are already with the program. About 50% of them considered the US invasion to be a liberation. Isn't that a good enough stance? — Paul Edwards
And why didn't they march back then in 1991 to Baghdad and free the Iraqi people then?
Let's listen to a man called Dick Cheney in 1994 giving the reasons just why invading Iraq is a terrible idea. Please listen to it, Paul: — ssu
First time in long time the US started a war
We didn't want to do anything to spook the USSR. — Paul Edwards
But now, it's "We can do anything!"
Every society has a power elite. The top administrators, the politicians, the rich people, the cultural elite and the media. This isn't at all a fixed group of people and is very difficult to define who actually is in this group.
Yet what they do and how they settle the competition for power is crucial for how the society works. — ssu
Our politics. — Kenosha Kid
Of course not. But there are norms and customs, "way of the land". And things what is tolerated in politics and what is not. These either soft or hard institutions that define how people behave. So when I say that there is a collective understanding I mean this. Not that the elite can agree on certain issues and speak with one voice.Are you saying that this nebulous group of "power elite" in Iraq speak with one voice? — Paul Edwards
And how can the UN by force of arms install social cohesion and ease the racial tensions in your country?We need a formula for installing democracy by force of arms so that we can get on with the job now that we've had feedback from Afghanistan and Iraq. — Paul Edwards
Of course not. But there are norms and customs, "way of the land". — ssu
And things what is tolerated in politics and what is not. These either soft or hard institutions that define how people behave. So when I say that there is a collective understanding I mean this. Not that the elite can agree on certain issues and speak with one voice.
And how can the UN by force of arms install social cohesion and ease the racial tensions in your country?
Seriously, if a person points a gun at your head, you will be focused on the situation that a person is pointing a gun at your head, not as much on what the person is saying. He might say that he is just wanting to improve your situation, yet that is secondary and the feeling is quite different if the conversation would be had in a normal situation.
Am I missing something? — Paul Edwards
How can you think that 99% of the Iraqi people thought that Saddam Hussein as abhorrent and be surprised that only 50%(which percentage I think would be likely more) saw him as that? ... why then would we think that foreigners are different from us?
If he REALLY would be despised by 99% of the population, then he surely would have fallen instantly
Yet it doesn't ask what complex issues are behind this.
We (hopefully) don't make such naive divisions of our own fellow citizens, so why then would we think that foreigners are different from us?
The Iraqi war was wrong by many measures. It was based on lies, so there was no right intent
sanctions killed more people than Saddam ever did
So it didn't result in a greater good
apparently don't accept dissent from your values
You think reading a wiki makes you informed, you're just wasting everybody's time.
Based on this we can derive two goals:
1. End state-slavery as quickly as possible.
2. Minimize casualties.
If it was just (1) we were after, we could simply nuke all the slave states. If it was just (2) we were after, we could have inaction. But the combination of these 2 goals requires a hell of a lot of thought to devise a cunning plan for world liberation. — Paul Edwards
Sometimes when the police are responding to a rape call, they kill pedestrians. Does that mean we should disband the police, because they sometimes do harm? — Paul Edwards
war should be the last resort
I hope if it happens again that some lessons have been learned from Iraq
lot more success than actual invasions
Sometimes when the police are responding to a rape call, they kill pedestrians. Does that mean we should disband the police, because they sometimes do harm?
If we accidentally get some things wrong, so be it. That should not be used as an excuse for inaction when there is institutionalized rape, meaning millions of women don't even have the basic right to not be raped. Or even worse - men don't have the right to keep their tongues in their mouth. — Paul Edwards
The US didn't invade Iraq to save raped women. They did it because it looked like a good way to squash al Qaida.
While it doesn't matter how many people Saddam killed? — Paul Edwards
And it is the Iraqi people's politics that were being forced on the Iraqi leadership, not US politics. — Paul Edwards
It was based on lies, so there was no right intent
Is this your philosophy: whataboutery? — Kenosha Kid
It is now perfectly clear what happened.
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.