while addressing a widescale problem, blaming individuals diminishes the importance of looking at the impact of the institutions, laws, culture and so on. — Judaka
People will often consider society or culture as a cause for human behavior, but isn’t society itself actually caused by human behavior? If a society or culture is particularly violent, isn’t that because the people within that culture behave violently? To me it seems that society or culture is basically just a scapegoat for our own actions and behaviors. Instead of pointing the finger at ourselves, we abstractly point to society instead, as if the fault/blame has nothing to do with us. — Pinprick
People will often consider society or culture as a cause for human behavior, but isn’t society itself actually caused by human behavior? — Pinprick
Hence putting the blame on the individual alone, or on society as a whole, are equally dubious approaches.
Isn't that obvious? — Banno
I will say though that society is more than just "the people" - if a society or culture is particularly violent we should look into why that is. — BitconnectCarlos
These expectations (i.e. standards) can be oppressive to some and have deep implications and we should be cognizant of this. This type of thing transcends the individual. — BitconnectCarlos
Blaming society for the actions of one is reasonable. It is a loop of whatever issue exists within the society.
If a society is extremely violent, the individuals will be violent which cause the society to be violent and so on. — CallMeDirac
My point is that “society” is just a group of people, so the blame still falls on the actual people making the choices. “Society” isn’t responsible for anything, the people that drive it are. — Pinprick
The terms “society” and “individuals” are almost synonymous. — Pinprick
The obvious answer being because the people are violent. After all, that’s what’s really meant when we say a particular society is violent, right? So the real question would be “why are people in group X more violent than people not in group X?” And it could be that people who are violent just so happen to prefer group X for whatever reason. Or it could be that violent people created group X for whatever reason. It doesn’t have to be the case that group X created violent people. — Pinprick
Sure, but I don’t think anyone can accurately say why I have the expectations I do. — Pinprick
People will often consider society or culture as a cause for human behavior, but isn’t society itself actually caused by human behavior? — Pinprick
What I’m getting at is that when people blame “society” for something, it is a deflection of blame. It isn’t capitalism, or racism that is a problem; it’s capitalists and racists that are. We tend to look at people as if they are a part of society, when in actuality they are society. — Pinprick
The terms “society” and “individuals” are almost synonymous. — Pinprick
eople will often consider society or culture as a cause for human behavior, but isn’t society itself actually caused by human behavior? If a society or culture is particularly violent, isn’t that because the people within that culture behave violently? To me it seems that society or culture is basically just a scapegoat for our own actions and behaviors. Instead of pointing the finger at ourselves, we abstractly point to society instead, as if the fault/blame has nothing to do with us. — Pinprick
Ah, you're a Thatcherite.
That didn't go so well. — Banno
I'll happily follow Searle in pointing out that there are intentions that can not be had by an individual alone — Banno
But we probably wouldn't say "people who are violent just so happen to prefer group X for whatever reason." — BitconnectCarlos
many religious people believe that atheists are immoral and cannot be trusted. This belief causes many atheists to stay closeted. — Aleph Numbers
They are obviously part of society, that's like saying "I'm not part of a group, I am the group". — Judaka
That is, we experienced a shift of power away from the people and into the hands of authority above us. — Athena
The issue is that all ideas, customs, norms, etc. were created by people, perhaps several people, but people nonetheless. Therefore, people are always the cause. — Pinprick
If people are only part of society, then what exactly do the remaining part(s) consist of? — Pinprick
“Authority above us” meaning other people, right? — Pinprick
↪Pinprick Yes, but also...we enter cultures. And we come without culture. And some cultures probably suit us better than others, each having strengths and weaknesses. Culture is the mixed batch compromise of people who have gone before us, filtered through POWER. That is the goals and ideas that the powerful want most people to have. And that also may cause us problems. — Coben
If I was violent, and there was a place where violence was not punished (or rarely/lightly punished), I would prefer to be there. So would everyone else like me. — Pinprick
Now that you mention it, I recall someone saying, "it's society's fault" and I'm not sure whether fae meant it in a way that you seem to be implying to wit that society is some kind of an individual entity like a person is, capable of causally potent intentions and actions independent of, and sometimes contrary to, its individual members, viz. us. — TheMadFool
The US is no longer the democracy it once was. In 1958 the National Defense Education Act, ending transmitting a culture base on Greek and Roman classes, and began preparing the young for a technological society with unknown values. Bush and Bush jr. were thrilled to be in charge of the New World Order and that came from Germany. It was not the American Dream the came out of the Enlightenment. This individual does not have much independent power but is prepared for life by society.An interesting fact that's germane to the issue herein is that societies and groups in general appear to be more rational than individuals and by that I mean to point out a truth that's hard to miss viz. unity is a better choice than division under almost all circumstances our world has to offer.
Framed in this context, it's easy to see that a claim like "it's society's fault" makes sense only in the case of society applying a negative selection pressure on certain individual predelictions and that in turn causing negative pyschological effects down the line that manifests in myriad ways at the individual level.
At the heart of the relationship between individuals and the societies is the push and pull between rationality and our passions. The former analyzes the passions, selects and nurtures those that benefit everyone and the latter simply does what it does and, most importantly, sometimes puts individuals in a position to reject, defy, go against, the interests of society and that lays the the foundation for attitudes and realities captured by the statement "it's society's fault". Intriiguingly and ironically, there seem to be occasions (played out in courts, committees, tribunals, etc.) on which the reverse accusation, "it's the individual's fault", is made by society.
If I was violent, and there was a place where violence was not punished (or rarely/lightly punished), I would prefer to be there. So would everyone else like me.
— Pinprick — BitconnectCarlos
So, in American culture of 2020, there are many guns available for individuals to use. Criticize the society for the number of guns. However, only an individual can pick up a gun, point it at you, and pull the trigger. That's the fault of the individual. — Bitter Crank
So the issue is if, when people do things together, there is a something that is worthy of it's own name. — Banno
Framed in this context, it's easy to see that a claim like "it's society's fault" makes sense only in the case of society applying a negative selection pressure on certain individual predelictions and that in turn causing negative pyschological effects down the line that manifests in myriad ways at the individual level. — TheMadFool
Their ideas and practices, their organisation and many things. — Judaka
Look at how society develops as a result of technology, overseas ideas, soft power from other countries or music, culture develops through food, drugs, religion. — Judaka
Even if society was just all individuals making choices, why would you ask people to take responsibility for someone else's choices? — Judaka
Why would that mean someone can't blame society even if they thought that meant "the individual choices which have impacted me"? — Judaka
Yes, people ultimately choose whether to be violent or not, even if there are particular environment or social factors which influenced them, they still go to jail for their crimes. — Judaka
You haven't even said who you're really arguing with just "them goddamn folk who blame society". — Judaka
Everything about this thread is mediocre and I've spent too much time on it already. — Judaka
Prussian military order is a few establish the policy and then they can all be killed, but the policy is still in force. — Athena
Effectively that is what we have but the parts of computer are organic. The parts are humans following policy and who expect everyone to follow policy. — Athena
And the very powerful media people are not being responsible people, but total prostitutes doing whatever it takes to accumulate wealth. — Athena
Sure, but what I’m getting at is that it’s someone’s fault that we have so many guns too. I just get the idea that some people treat society as if it was a separate entity capable of making decisions. It’s not. — Pinprick
Prussian military order is a few establish the policy and then they can all be killed, but the policy is still in force.
— Athena
But the cause is still those few who established the policies. I think we should move away from blaming things like society or policies, and towards the people who create/perpetuate them. If the point of ascribing blame is to create change, then the focus should be narrow. Society encompasses many things, some good, some bad, but when we blame society as a whole the good seems to be overlooked, or overshadowed by whatever we’re railing against to be changed. We don’t want the entire society to change (at least not usually), we want particular parts of it to change that are created/ spurred on by particular people. It’s those people that need to change, not some abstract notion of society. — Pinprick
Effectively that is what we have but the parts of a computer are organic. The parts are humans following policy and who expect everyone to follow policy.
— Athena
But there is still no need to be complicit in a system you feel is corrupt. Following orders aren’t the only option you have. And no, you’re very unlikely to have the power to change or influence much beyond your personal inner circle, but that’s precisely how change takes place over time. It just takes a lot of people, and a lot of time being the change they wish to see in the world, to paraphrase Gandhi. [1quote]
Is there a way to use the internet and avoid all the corruption? In the beginning of the web we retained control but we have totally lost it and nothing is being done about that. Changing education seems impossible when everyone is convinced we have excellent education and can not see what it has to do with becoming a police state. If a person has the money and power of Bill Gates people will turn to this person for advise, but being one rebellious individual does not seem to be working so well for me.
And the very powerful media people are not being responsible people, but total prostitutes doing whatever it takes to accumulate wealth.
— Athena
Perfect! This is a good example of what I mean. Holding particular people responsible, rather than just “the media.”
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