I am sure that early hominids did care for the sick and the elderly. Perhaps the problems we are in here is that we have become reliant on institutions. It is complicated because while we may have become dependent on these institutions we do need them because they are enabling us to live longer.

We need the hospitals to provide good quality care. But then we are in a situation that people may end up living so long that even the offspring are middle aged or elderly themselves. So, this means that more people are in residential care.

I am sure that life in some countries, and possibly life where you are in the Phillipines, is very different. In some ways you are probably living a more community based existence which is has benefits. But it has costs too. In particular, you mentioned that it was likely that when vaccines come your country will get a poor quality one.

So the question is how far should development go? Third World countries have been modelling the development of Western countries. But the Western countries are far from perfect. The question is to what extent should people be reliant on large institutions or more community based?

So the question is how far should development go? Third World countries have been modelling the development of Western countries. But the Western countries are far from perfect. The question is to what extent should people be reliant on large institutions or more community based? — Jack Cummins

3rd world countries like ours definitely want to be like you guys in the top echelon but I really don't think the resource management and distribution will ever match the population growth. As it is, our resources can only handle a population of 70 million and we're already past 110 million today. I think other bottom dwelling countries are in the same boat.

So, I think most Filipinos have no choice but to rely on the community for assistance and support.

As a country however, you can see in our politics how our government is trying to allign itself with China - who has really deep pockets. And they are lifting the ban on foreign owned companies. So maybe we will start to see a rise of big institutions coming in.

Maybe we'll see more industrialization in a generation or so. Maybe we'll see pockets of growth here and there but who knows? To be honest, I don't want them to come in too strong because they have a sort of scorched earth policy and I don't want my countryside to be uninhabitable, or our waters and air turned toxic.

I think that fear is part of it. I am also aware of another tradition which is the whole law of attraction. I am not sure that it is accepted in scientific circles but I find that it makes sense. It is a different slant to the law of karma, although both probably stem from esoteric sources.

The law of karma looks backwards and is in its essence about cause and effect. It probably involves people's own sense of conscience. The law of attraction in the view of Esther and Jeremy Hicks and a number of other writers involves how we bring about manifest reality based on intentions. However, it is not just about conscious goals but also about subconscious aspects, such as fear. In a way, it may appear as if karma and the law of attraction are opposed but I think that they are interconnected somehow.

Causality is a complex topic and I am not saying that the idea of karma or the law of attraction have captured the whole picture. But causality remains a puzzle even within science and I think many quantum physicist speak of indeterminancy However, I do think that when we think about changes in the world, social and political action most obviously play a major role. But I do think it involves the whole question of manifestation. So, how do you view causation?

It is interesting to hear your perspective because I don't think any of the Filipinos I have known have ever talked about the social conditions or politics of their country.

I have conversed with many people from Africa, although many were from towns, not villages. Often, the Africans I have known were in favour of following a lifestyle based on the English one, although, of course, they were ones who had chosen to come here. However, I think that some of them did hope to return to Africa at some point in the future.

It is useful to hear the views of people who come from or are living in Third World countries, as an alternative perspective to that of English or American culture.

There's evidence of early hominids caring for their elderly, their young and the sick. We also see similar behaviors in animals that live in groups. So maybe that is the natural state and selfishness to the detriment of others is unnatural because it leads to self-isolation. — 8livesleft

Most likely our line of humans out-competed the Neanderthal because of our greater ability to organize group behaviors than enhance survival. Human success really depends on organizational skills and motivating people to act in unison for one goal. Trump is a master at this, but he made the terrible mistake of pitting us against each other to develop his core of supporters. He almost won the election, but fortunately, Biden won the election. Unfortunately, Biden has to deal with the damage done by Trump. Can he unite us and prevent violence? Can he get us to work together to against the virus? I am afraid because of Trump's leadership, Biden's efforts to unite us in fight against Covid will lead to more violence. And if the no masks, no restrictions side had won, our population would have been reduced even more.

Bottom line- human success depends on human unity.

I would say that unity is central to the whole question of survival of humanity, especially the battle against the pandemic. However, as someone said to me in April, the difference of the situation is opposite to the the 2nd World war because that brought people together as a community and people are being told to isolate.

Obviously, you are speaking of unity on a deeper level. However, I do think that this may be the tricky part. This is because we are being isolated and it makes it harder to reach out to others in many ways. But perhaps this does give plenty of time for reflection. I do agree with you that we are definitely seeing signs of people going beyond selfish concerns. Let's hope that this is the beginning of better thinking and positive direction.

I would say that unity is central to the whole question of survival of humanity, especially the battle against the pandemic. However, as someone said to me in April, the difference of the situation is opposite to the the 2nd World war because that brought people together as a community and people are being told to isolate.

Obviously, you are speaking of unity on a deeper level. However, I do think that this may be the tricky part. This is because we are being isolated and it makes it harder to reach out to others in many ways. But perhaps this does give plenty of time for reflection. I do agree with you that we are definitely seeing signs of people going beyond selfish concerns. Let's hope that this is the beginning of better thinking and positive direction. — Jack Cummins

In this pandemic, we must realize we are in this together. Separated by distance does mean we are not in this together. The whole world is having the same experience, although in different ways.

Trump was the worst possible leader the US could have had at this time, assuring the worst possible outcome of the pandemic because he pitted us against the media and against each other, assuring the spread of the virus because of the large number of people who refuse to follow any of the guidelines.

I do think there are positive effects of the pandemic because of more compassion and a strong motivation to do better. However, I am afraid of the impact Trump has had on us. On the other hand, what he has done to us is so bad we must seek a solution, so even that bad can lead to a better tomorrow.

The more everyone realizes we are in this together the better the whole world will be. It is far better to identify a pandemic where it originates and throw everything we can at stopping it. That can mean being sure people on the other side of the world have clean water and are will feed and have medical care because their problem can become our problem. Do you get the very real meaning that we are all in this together? To a virus, we are all the same and it does not respect boundaries.

So, how do you view causation? — Jack Cummins

Causation, as far as I can tell, is, all things considered, simply a pattern in events. I pot a plant, keep it where it gets good sunlight, water it, and it grows. I do the same thing to another plant and another, all of them grow. When that happens a light bulb goes off in my head and I say to myself, "hey, this could be useful" and I give it a name: causation.

I would say that the positive side of the pandemic is that it makes us aware that we are all vulnerable. It can be transmitted as easily to the poor as the rich. It does seem that some ethnic groups, particularly Asians and Africans are worst affected. However, the whole pandemic has affected everyone on some level, and in that sense can be a wakeup call which can hopefully be a united one.

I would say that there is definitely a clear relationship between action and results. However, what I wonder about is the role of intentionality and consciousness in determining events. I am not convinced that causation only occurs on the physical level. I do believe that it is much more complex. Here, I wonder about Jung's notion of synchronicity. He is speaking of meaningful coincidences. Of course, it is we the subjects who perceive the meaningful coincidences.

The question is do the perceived coincidences exist only in our minds? Could it be that more like the way described by the physicist David Bohm suggested in his idea of the implicate and explicate order? If change occurs in the implicate order we could be seen as seeing patterns played out in the explicate order, of manifestation in life. But, on the other hand, our consciousness might also have a basis in the implicate order, and therefore have an active, determining influence too.

Jung's synchronicity has to first explain why it isn't just pareidolia. I don't know anything about David Bohm. Sorry.

I would say that synchronicity is more than paradoelia. I do believe that it is one aspect of causality at an invisible level. I do believe that what happens in the individual and collective aspects of life cannot just be explained in terms of physical causes. I am not wishing to undermine the role of actions at all but I do believe that thought has power too, especially on the level of the mass psyche of humanity.

I would say that synchronicity is more than paradoelia. I do believe that it is one aspect of causality at an invisible level. I do believe that what happens in the individual and collective aspects of life cannot just be explained in terms of physical causes. I am not wishing to undermine the role of actions at all but I do believe that thought has power too, especially on the level of the mass psyche of humanity. — Jack Cummins

Jung's synchronicity concept is simply that there's meaning, albeit private to the individual experiencing it, in coincidences. He was very adamant or so I believe that people shouldn't look at it from a causal perspective and hence acausal parallelism.

Perhaps Jung did say that synchronicity was about patterns and not causes but I still think that the whole idea did have implications about causality. I am planning to look at the thread on causality to widen my own very limited understanding of this complex matter, but I am trying to reply to a couple of comments on other threads firstly

I guess that the issue of causality relevant to this thread is about the way in which events in life and the world become manifest. I am also interested in the whole idea of self-fulfilling prophecy, so I will get back to you if I come up with any further insights on my travels on the various threads.

Perhaps Jung did say that synchronicity was about patterns and not causes but I still think that the whole idea did have implications about causality. I am planning to look at the thread on causality to widen my own very limited understanding of this complex matter, but I am trying to reply to a couple of comments on other threads firstly

I guess that the issue of causality relevant to this thread is about the way in which events in life and the world become manifest. I am also interested in the whole idea of self-fulfilling prophecy, so I will get back to you if I come up with any further insights on my travels on the various threads. — Jack Cummins

Are you aware of four dimensionalism. According to it, each observer has faer own plane of simultaneity i.e. what appears to be simulnateous events to me may not be so to you or another observer. Synchronicity depends on simultaneity and if we can't agree on the latter, the former has no leg to stand on.

I googled the idea of four dimensionalism. The problem is that there are so many theories and we all dip in and out of them as we choose.

But what I would say is that I definitely believe that there are more that there are 4, 5 or more dimensions. I would say that the fourth dimension involves time. I have had discussions on various threads about other dimensions. So, you say that the four dimensionalism you are familiar with would reject synchronicity as an idea.

I would be inclined to think that synchronicity as Jung understood it was based more on a 3 dimensional perspective because he was writing a long time ago, so did not have the knowledge that we have access to, especially the ideas of quantum physics. In particular, if you read his autobiography he tends to understand premonitions in this way. When I first read his writings, I found his idea of synchronicity helpful but if I really think about I probably think that premonitions involve accessing ideas in another dimension, although I have not formulated it in this way until writing it this way. However, it is probably about seeing patterns in nature.

Today, I was reading Fritjof Capra's systems view and he speaks about self-fulfilling prophecy in terms of self-balancing feedback as recognised within cybernetic. He speaks of the nature of this in terms of a 'circular nature of such self-reinforcing, "runaway" feedback loops.

Capra's ideas are useful for considering disasters, especially at the level of deep ecology. He sees the interconnected relationships between living systems. He also draws upon the ideas of many thinkers, including chaos theory and James Lovelock's idea of planet earth as a living being, Gaia. One important conclusion which he comes to is that,
'Reconnecting with the web of life means building and nurturing sustainable communities in which we can satisfy our needs and aspirations without diminishing the chances of future generations.'

I have been reading in the news about the way in which some countries are facing being given poorer quality vaccines, or none at all. So, let's hope that it is addressed. It might be the point on which the world has to, or can, unite together.

Bottom line- human success depends on human unity. — Athena

Ain't that the truth. That's why I'm all for removing superficial and archaic barriers.

This virus is an opportunity for us to experience how alike we all are and how connected we truly are as we all deal with this mindless thing that's affecting us all regardless of race, denomination, status, age, gender.

But of course, we're seeing groups trying to again highlight differences during this time. Which is unfortunate.

Yeah it's a mess here but thankfully since the news is so open, we're seeing studies showing these vaccines' efficacy. In Brazil, this particular vaccine our govt is getting, got a whopping 51% efficacy.

Hopefully, congress/senate/cabinet would get their heads out of our president's a&& and suggest the right thing.

Of course, when we are in difficult circumstances we draw upon all philosophies, but I am wondering about how may we construct a philosophy for disasters? — Jack Cummins

A philosophy of disasters would be an ethics. You'll need some assumptions about responsibility toward both existing humans and future generations. (It isn't trivial to deduce that we have any responsibility toward the propagation of the species.)

There's also two different kinds of disaster to consider. The first is something like the current pandemic which has the capacity to kill a lot of people but can be handled in a reactive way: these are non-existential threats. The best way to ensure one can react is to invest in science and to ensure that people value facts. The biggest failure to cope with the Covid pandemic has been a disregard for truth, especially at the top. The scientific response has been extremely good: multiple vaccines in a short period of time, with solid (albeit often disregarded) advice on how to stay safe and minimise the impact of the virus in the meantime.

Then there are existential threats, such as that predicted by climate scientists, which require a proactive approach. I'm more pessimistic about these. As I said, it isn't trivial to show that we owe future generations anything at all, and that kind of short-termism is likely to push us toward a catastrophe. Ideally it would be the role of government to make the case to follow the scientific advice, but as per the reactive example above, that can't be relied upon. People are more likely to vote for the party that promises to do nothing than the one that promises specific pre-emptive action.

Ideally, disaster preparation would be removed as this kind of political football. If we agree we cannot do nothing, and we agree we cannot rely on people to vote to do something, a long-term, perhaps meritocratically-elected governmental branch free from political interference might do the job. However that which one giveth one could taketh away, so I suspect the people would promptly vote to dismantle such a branch.

I think that you are right to point to the way in which you point to the way in which the philosophy of disasters involves ethics.

The only thing which I would query is 'an ethics' because that sounds a bit too fixed, as if it may be prescriptive rather than dialogue about ethical issues.

I think that it is far too early to say that the scientific response to the pandemic has been good. We don't know to what extent the vaccine is going to solve the problem, especially in the light of mutant strains. We could be looking at a situation in which the virus is around for a very long time to come, possibly years or decades. I am also not sure that all the advice being given is correct.

Here, I will give an example I found out about today. I discovered that someone I know who has not been out or mixed with anyone for a long time has tested positive for the virus. She reckons that she must have caught it from food left outside her doors. So, this does raise questions about whether the transmission is really human to human, or far more complicated. I realise that this I have given only one example but it does raise questions about the whole emphasis being on social distancing, as if it solves the whole problem.

The key thing which I see about the whole current pandemic is that we are still dealing with the unknown. As it is, for many people the whole life that they have known has stopped and people are still dying in multitudes. I would say that we are far from being able to think about any success of science.

Certainly, let us hope that the disaster has woken us up to the whole threat of disasters. But, of course it is not the first. There have been earthquakes, terrorist attacks, the Grenfell tower fire in London, and many more. Unfortunately, it seems that thinking often occurs in the aftermath.

The only thing which I would query is 'an ethics' because that sounds a bit too fixed, as if it may be prescriptive rather than dialogue about ethical issues. — Jack Cummins

I think a safe space to discuss solutions and implications is a great idea, but a poor endgame.

I think that it is far too early to say that the scientific response to the pandemic has been good. — Jack Cummins

Four vaccines in under a year is pretty good. Even if you choose not to believe in scientific testing, having four candidates for hope is a pretty swell response if you ask me.

So, this does raise questions about whether the transmission is really human to human, or more. — Jack Cummins

It's been well understood that the virus can pass via surfaces of objects for a long time, which is why everyone has to disinfect everything all the time.

Certainly, let us hope that the disaster has woken us up to the whole threat of disasters. But, of course it is not the first. There have been earthquakes, terrorist attacks, the Grenfell tower fire in London, and many more. Unfortunately, it seems that thinking often occurs in the aftermath. — Jack Cummins

Yes, Grenfell is a good example where a proactive approach had already been taken in terms of laws, but our current attitude to corporations is that legality is an opt-in/pay-out deal. Similar situation in America with Du Pont. Knowingly killing tens of thousands of people is technically illegal, but they're a big business so, as long as they pay out, they can carry on.

This has a direct impact on the climate crisis, since many of the largest businesses are in the business of causing it. Historically, financial disincentives don't seem to be an obstacle when there's a greater financial incentive to accelerate toward disaster. A better commercial ethic needs to be part of the conversation.

I am certainly not wishing to undermine the success of finding four vaccines, and I am certainly hoping for the best. We still have to hope that the world inequalities are addressed to see that certain countries are not missing out. It may be that this pandemic is a way of transcending inequality on a wide scale.

Yes, the transmission of the virus is known to occur on surfaces. This is complex because we can't see it and how much can one keep disinfecting and know how much is enough. I have known people with obsessive compulsive disorder and they end up wasting for hours on end. Perhaps it is about getting the right balance. I tend to be just as careful as I can possibly be but not to a ridiculous extent, and as far as I know I have not had the virus and I was having to travel on busses to work daily in the first couple of months of the virus. I am a big fan of wipes because they aren't too sticky.

I do think that this is all interrelated to economics and climate change. It certainly gives a chance to address the problems of the largest businesses and the effects they are having on the ecosystem. So, while I remain sceptical about many of the underlying problems, it could be that we are on the brink of some revolutionary change and transformation.

I tend to be just as careful as I can possibly be but not to a ridiculous extent, and as far as I know I have not had the virus and I was having to travel on busses to work daily in the first couple of months of the virus. — Jack Cummins

Me too, although I now get taxis and I've become an alcoholic as long as it's in hand gel form ;)

In some hospitals, alcohol gel gets removed because people do literally drink it if they are desperate with alcohol cravings.

I have seen in a number of news items that the abuse of alcohol has escalated beyond all proportion in the time of the pandemic, so that is going to be another problem which will have to be addressed in the aftermath too.

Ain't that the truth. That's why I'm all for removing superficial and archaic barriers.

This virus is an opportunity for us to experience how alike we all are and how connected we truly are as we all deal with this mindless thing that's affecting us all regardless of race, denomination, status, age, gender.

But of course, we're seeing groups trying to again highlight differences during this time. Which is unfortunate. — 8livesleft

I so enjoyed watching the Public BroadcastingChannel Yesterday. There was a celebration of music in the evening and it was uplifting. All but one President stood together, democratic and republican declaring unity. That was such a happy sight. The leadership is now of unity and hope.

Leaders are as strong as their followers make them and the music of the time and media are very important to this. Many songs have been written during these hard times like the songs written during the Great Depression. Here a favorite one titled "Happy Days are Here Again". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqsT4xnKZPg

The US is dealing with a history of racism and we have a history of White people who tried to right that wrong, so 8Livesleft, I hope the talk of the problem is shifted with the change in leadership and songs that lift our spirits and we talk about our history of White people who did not try to correct the wrong and how this is the time to overcome the problem of racism and the paranoia created by 9/11. I do not the one-sided talk of racism we have this past year.

I see everyone is speaking of how the pandemic is affecting them. I have had my ups and downs and thankfully mostly ups. But I am an old goat with a lot of experience with adversity and I am not looking for a mate or a good career, so I think it is a whole lot easier for me. My life is behind me and all there is to do now is keep myself happy. But I worry so for the children!

The children in my family are having a real hard time. The youngest one has been separated from her mother and is not happy. The family has risked visits after my granddaughter tests negative, but we still know there is a risk not just to the family but to everyone where the youngest one lives. I can not think of a crueler life experience than this one. It is not as traumatic as war, but in war, the moment of fighting passes. This pandemic is going on and on exhausting our morale.

I would agree that the pandemic is exhausting our morale. I think that you are right in saying that in war the moment of fighting passes, and in this situation it goes on and on.I try not to dwell on it all the time. I do need to find work but I cannot properly do so and I am trying to make the best use of my time and energy.

In some ways, I am grateful for being able to have some time to myself. If it had not been for lockdown and restrictions I would not have been able to engage on this site in the way that I have been doing. I sometimes imagine if I was in the job I was in last year, how I might have spent my break at work on the site. But I would say that in many ways I feel much more well due to being not at work because I had so much stress at work and difficult shift patterns. Also, on my days off I used to go out so much and stay out late in Central London, so I was often lacking in rest. So, what I am saying is that changes brought by the pandemic cannot possibly last permanently but it is best to make the most creative use of them. In some ways, I feel that the time is comparable to the school holidays which at the time seemed so long.

I did see your earlier post, and your entry about the celebration yesterday. I didn't see it because I don't have a television. In many ways, I am glad that I don't have a television because I find that if I watch too much news I get depressed. Usually, I just check the news about once or twice a day on my phone, just so that I am up to date. Anything more becomes too much. I prefer to entertain myself by reading and listening to music than television, although most of my friends watch loads of it because they really enjoy it

Anyway, let us hope that we see some positive news in the US, England and the rest of the world.
We don't want too many more disasters at the moment, because we have more than enough to think about. If there is too much to deal with it can be completely overwhelming.

I have many college courses on DVD's and Cd's and audio tapes, from the Great Courses company. I have been listening to a 3 part series on the early middle age, middle age and late middle age. Right now the lecture is about the the long period when plagues swept across Europe. About every 6 years, give or take a few years, they were hit by a deadly pandemic. What impressed me, after several pandemics they reacted as Mexicans have with a celebration of the Day of the Dead and a parade of skeletons, decorated skulls, etc.. When Europeans came to the American continents they brought disease and disseminated the native populations and as the people in Europe they came to celebrating death.

Of course individuals reacted to all the dying differently. Just about everyone assumed this was the end of the world. Some hunkered down to protect themselves and they became very frugal, leading to some accumulating money that was nice to have as estates were left vacant. Others took the attitude, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we all die.

I bought a special edition Scientific American magazine that is about research into things like conspiracy theory and social media. When people are traumatized as all the deaths are effecting many people, and uncertainty is increased, such as loosing a job and not knowing what will happen next, people are more prone to believing conspiracy theories. It gives them something to pin all their anxiety on, and perhaps a sense that the threat can be overcome. In short, getting crazy is a coping skill.

I am really worried that my 13 year old great grandson has taken a turn for the worst and in his isolation is looping negative thoughts about no one liking him and he can't do anything right, and even suicide. His mother works and he is left alone way too much with nothing positive to focus on. We used to be good buddies and have wonderful adventures in nature and with informative DVD's and science experiments. But he hit that age when he doesn't want to be with Grandma anymore. Great, but school is closed and he can't run around with friends. Mom is not getting it. She thinks her son is hearing voices and going crazy because something is wrong with his brain, and she gets furious with me when I point out the problem is isolation and nothing to do that moves his mind in a positive direction as you are doing, Jack. I wish he would read the classics and learn how heroes in literature deal with adversity but he is unwilling to do that. I am sure depression has eaten up his motivation.

I think it is a mistake to leave the young to figure things for themselves without guidance and encouragement in these times. They can't even learn from each other because they are isolated. Any suggestions?

I am sorry to hear that your grandson is struggling. I think that your story is one which highlights the way in which what is going on in the world impacts on individuals. The media shows life from a very general point of view and the suffering going on behind the scenes may get missed. I think that in England, there is recognition that children are being affected by the pandemic, as well as adults, in terms of mental health.

That is what makes all of this disaster so complicated. Obviously, it is important to protect the physically vulnerable. However, I do believe in the aftermath of all this, a whole vast explosion of other underlying problems are going to arise. I think many people are aware of this, but this is not being addressed fully at the moment.

Afterwards, I noticed that you asked about any suggestions. I am afraid I don't have any practical suggestions about the situation you describe because I don't really know many children at present. But I would say that if your grandson is hearing voices it may be helpful if a GP knows. Obviously, that may mean going down the pathway of adolescence psychiatry services, which you may see as not the best option, but I would think that, on the other hand, there is a danger in just ignoring what is happening. Perhaps, some kind of counselling might be offered.