So, the political question here seems to be : are we, in the established democracies — Gnomon
There are definitely strange things going on in physics. I don't pretend to understand them, or even like them, but I suspect it will look very different in the future and our current obsessions will begin to seem as antiquated as Aristotle.But my current philosophy/physics book, by James B. Glattfelder*1 inadvertently raised an economic issue that also has political-philosophical significance. — Gnomon
The feudal system was developed in a much simpler society, in which money played a much smaller part than it does in ours. It was more concerned to regulate brute power rather than financial power. The development of international (in fact global) trade and of technology changed all that. I don't think there's any going back, though now that inheritance of money or at least the advantages gained for children through money is so much more important than it was does re-introduce an important element of the feudal system.*4. The feudal system — Gnomon
That's not wrong. Money equals control of resources in a functioning political system. One of the primary duties of a government is to ensure that is maintained. However, money is also a power base that is an alternative to the vote, and is perfectly capable of subverting it. That's why distribution of financial resources is not just an ethical question, but a political one.Money equals power; Power makes Law; Law makes Government
You are quite right about the myth of democracy. It has been incredibly damaging and arguable led us to the crisis that we are now facing.There is a myth about democracy which sees it as both good and natural. With this myth comes ideas which say that non-democratic rule in Russia or China or the United States is an aberration, and that any deviation from pure democracy must be bad. Historically speaking, these are not aberrations at all. In fact democracy is historically recognized to be a rather dubious form of government, which is why even before the constitutional convention we had significant checks on democratic forms. — Leontiskos
That I disagree with - although I don't know why Aristotle thought that, so I could be persuaded. I think the outcomes are what matters. After all, almost every regime is based on pure force. Though if you start with a selfish dictatorship, it does seem unlikely that the regime will turn into a benevolent government any time soon.One of Aristotle's many contributions is that the goodness or badness of any particular regime must always be judged relative to where it began. This is true regardless of one's regime hierarchy. — Leontiskos
That optimism is a major cause of our problems now. That's why I think that revolution is, of itself, a Bad Idea. Reform is more likely to succeed.Even if someone thought that democracy was the greatest thing since sliced bread, it would nevertheless remain true that the Soviet Union cannot be expected to shift from communism to democracy in the blink of an eye, and that the fall of the Berlin wall is not necessarily teleologically oriented towards a democratic regime. — Leontiskos
Yes. I was using the term "democracy" loosely. That's why I referred to Communism as "an extreme form of representative Democracy" where the party symbolizes the populace. Most of the modern political systems have been attempts to work around the negative aspects of the ancient pyramidal social organization that came to be known as "Feudalism". That name refers to the fiefs or fees that vassals pay to their lords higher in the hierarchy. In some cases, all the political power was concentrated at the top : Absolute Dictators & Despots*1. But that never lasted long. So, some sort of spread-the-power compromise was always necessary to form a stable government.I think the question is whether any of the regimes you speak about are properly called democracies, or ever were. — Leontiskos
Yes. I was using the term "democracy" loosely. That's why I referred to Communism as "an extreme form of representative Democracy" where the party symbolizes the populace. Most of the modern political systems have been attempts to work around the negative aspects of the ancient pyramidal social organization that came to be known as "Feudalism". That name refers to the fiefs or fees that vassals pay to their lords higher in the hierarchy. In some cases, all the political power was concentrated at the top : Absolute Dictators & Despots*1. But that never lasted long. So, some sort of spread-the-power compromise was always necessary to form a stable government. — Gnomon
So, some sort of spread-the-power compromise was always necessary to form a stable government. — Gnomon
In some cases, all the political power was concentrated at the top : Absolute Dictators & Despots*1. But that never lasted long. — Gnomon
This idea implies that those who control the flow of money have the ultimate ability to influence and potentially control those who control the "things" — Gnomon
That optimism is a major cause of our problems now. That's why I think that revolution is, of itself, a Bad Idea. Reform is more likely to succeed. — Ludwig V
No. I'm making broad philosophical/metaphorical associations, and using modern terminology to describe ancient hierarchical organizations. The point is that, what we now call Oligarchy has always existed in some form. :wink:Hmm. Are you assuming that the modern state has always existed? That there was always a single "government" attached to "nations" in a single "hierarchy"? — Leontiskos
Yes. The modern notion of a law-bound government would not apply to most ancient societies. It was mostly rule-of-men instead of rule-of-law. But the OP is intended to imply that the modern break-down of lawful governments is allowing strong-men (oligarch) to rule their little fiefdoms. :smile:It was probably much more a case of various loci of power and federation. "The government" could never have been reified in the past. — Leontiskos
Yes. The fiefs (tariffs, taxes) in pre-modern societies were mainly in the form of goods & services. Everything else was bartered : a pig for a dozen chickens. And gold or silver money was mostly limited to exchanges at the top, between Lords & Kings. Yet, again, the point of the OP is that modern Oligarchs seem to have a metaphorical license to print money*1. :cool:In this too I see a modern notion of the centralization of money. Without modern nation states there simply is no centralization of money. — Leontiskos
In the OP, the economic math revealed invisible structures within the complexities of the world economic systems : One example is Ownership Networks : “Here the nodes can be corporations, governments, foundations, or physical persons”. He says this kind of analysis “reveals architectures of power invisible to any other type of examination. . . . . this economic power is much more unequally distributed than income or wealth. . . . . This highly-skewed distribution of power has economy-wide implications related to anti-competitiveness, tax avoidance, the role of offshore financial centers, and systemic risk.” Hence "free market capitalism" has devolved into private markets for Oligarchs, and off-the-books black markets for wealthy criminals. :sad:↪Gnomon
yes, he’s hit the nail on the head. That is what’s going on and capitalism, as in free market capitalism has turned toxic. — Punshhh
Actually, the current globalized economy gives a rise to oligopolies.The thing that is different now is the mobility of capital. Companies or not beholden anymore to some place or community, but can shop all over the world and force favourable conditions from governments who are put into competition with each other.
So yes things tend to oligarchy, the question to me seems what kind of oligarchy. — ChatteringMonkey
That is the problem with our current socio-economic system : money & power have become separated from political responsibility. The Oligarchs only have responsibility to their share-holders. But those who also hold the majority of shares can do as they please, with little limitation on their inclination. Fortunately, most of the "garchs" seem to be somewhat restrained by personal virtue and by public opinion. But their occasional ostentatious displays of over-weening wealth, such as a $50million wedding, may come to seem business-as-usual. :smile:So yes things tend to oligarchy, the question to me seems what kind of oligarchy. The king and nobility in a feudal system usually still had some responsibility to their subjects, because they were ultimately still dependent on them for their power. The current oligarchs have no such issues, they can be parasitic to a place and community and just pick up and relocate to somewhere else when things go south. — ChatteringMonkey
My worldview imagines that the world is on "auto-pilot", and that internal control-system, Natural Law, seems to be functioning properly to keep the cosmos on course. But of course, any journey has its ups & downs, its cross-winds, and barriers to progress. So the historical track of progress is not a straight line, but a sinuous path full of twists & turns. Even the biblical Creation account, with God at the controls, at first looked like the story began at the destination : a perfect Paradise. But then, along came the snake to knock God's ship off course. And the rest is, as they say, history : full of diversions and course corrections.I wonder if the whole global system is just on auto-pilot with no one really "running" any of it. — frank
Power and capital are already adjusting for this. Which is partly why the populists are shouting so loud at the moment.I've been looking lately at what the weather will be like in 2100. Even that soon some areas that are presently occupied will be too hot for human viability. I think that will become the driver of policy eventually.
In the OP, the economic math revealed invisible structures within the complexities of the world economic systems : One example is Ownership Networks : “Here the nodes can be corporations, governments, foundations, or physical persons”. He says this kind of analysis “reveals architectures of power invisible to any other type of examination. . . . . this economic power is much more unequally distributed than income or wealth. . . . . This highly-skewed distribution of power has economy-wide implications related to anti-competitiveness, tax avoidance, the role of offshore financial centers, and systemic risk.” Hence "free market capitalism" has devolved into private markets for Oligarchs, and off-the-books black markets for wealthy criminals. :sad:
Yes, I agree with this. But this time it’s different and that’s because of the size of the global population, the rate of the stripping of natural resources and the destruction of ecosystems. We have reached the point where the destruction and pollution of the planet is at a tipping point. The ecosystem and life support systems in nature are starting to shrink, while rates of pollution and the size of the population are still rising.If you look closely at a specific historical era, it may seem chaotic and directionless. But if you zoom-out, and take a Hegelian Dialectic*1 perspective, you might notice that positives & negatives tend to balance-out over time. A historical thesis can be portrayed as a physical vector composed of both political force and philosophical direction. Then along comes a new vector to knock the ship off-track. So, the historical path will look like a meandering trail, except the average {historical direction below} is always pointed at the intended destination.
That is the problem with our current socio-economic system : money & power have become separated from political responsibility. — Gnomon
Some Utopian sci-fi stories envision such a global, or solar-system-wide, or multi-galaxy foundation based on some form of representative or direct democracy, so that the numerical power of the lower classes (98%) can balance the economic power of the upper classes (2%).In order to halt and reverse these trends it will require a coordinated global effort between nation states. — Punshhh
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