• Bob Ross
    2.3k


    I can get on board with that.
  • Bob Ross
    2.3k


    Why do you keep straw manning my position?!? I've giving you every reason to believe that I believe that I can justify my claims through natural theology; and you keep acting like I haven't done that.
  • Bob Ross
    2.3k


    Like I've always said, justice is about respecting the dignities of things which is relative to the totality of creation (and how everything fits into it). Justice, then, is fundamentally about restoring the order of things and not punishment; however, what you are missing is that retribution and punishment are not the same thing: retribution is a requirement of restoration, but punishment is not.
  • Bob Ross
    2.3k


    That framing - "the argument from change, essences/existences, contingency/necessity, parts vs. wholes, etc." - is Thomism.

    It doesn’t have to be. You are trying to lump me into a broader metaphysical framework so that you don’t have to contend with what I am saying.

    I want you to demonstrate to me where the argument from change, going back to Aristotle, depends on divine revelation to demonstrate the existence of God. You can’t, and you know you can’t; so instead you say “well, Aquinas used the argument from change as an ad hoc rationalization for his prior beliefs from the Bible”. So what? What does that have to do with the argument from change itself? Do we disregard arguments based off of irrelevant beliefs that the author may have had?

    That second paragraph, for example, in positing such things as an "absolute simple", supposing "pure act of will" makes sense, and so on, adopts a very particular view of how things are. It is very far from neutral, and has been used for centuries to defend christian revelation.

    So? Again, instead of contending with what I said you just straw man me with “but Christians have used these same arguments to defend their positions”. I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN. So what? Do you have anything to contend with in terms of the actual concepts of divine simplicity, pure actuality, etc.?

    It looks like you have adopted a particular anachronistic account in order to achieve an already chosen outcome.

    You are pretending to know my motivations for accepting arguments like the one from change; and you are painfully mistaken. I don’t know what you tell you: I tried to show you but you always ignore what I am saying and just claim that “well, somebody else has used this as an ad hoc rationalization, so you must be too”. It’s nonsense.
  • Bob Ross
    2.3k
    No I don't think we would; because then most of us would always block pain. Likewise, is it metaphysically possible to block pain as a mental switch: I don't know.
  • Bob Ross
    2.3k
    Justice is about respecting the ordering of things; and when that ordering is broken it must be restored; and to restore it the offender has to pay a proportionate price. To forgo that price, all else being equal, is to have mercy at the expense of justice.
  • frank
    17.9k

    About 60% of incarcerated people in the US are poor people. Maybe better education and job opportunities?
  • RogueAI
    3.3k
    No I don't think we would; because then most of us would always block pain.Bob Ross

    Well yeah, that's the point. Gratuitous pain sucks. It's useless.

    Likewise, is it metaphysically possible to block pain as a mental switch: I don't know.Bob Ross

    Why would it be metaphysically impossible? The human body has some very poorly "designed" features. I don't see why it would be metaphysically impossible for God to have tweaked evolution in a way to give us better bodies with better features and still keep up naturalness appearances. Do humans have to get so much cancer? Lower back pain? Dementia? When you hamstring God by saying, "well, it might be metaphysically impossible for God to do that", you're making God sound very impotent. I get why Christians like Leibniz do that, but it's a very weak ad hoc move. Prima facie, this is obviously not the best of all possible worlds.
  • RogueAI
    3.3k
    Justice is about respecting the ordering of things; and when that ordering is broken it must be restored; and to restore it the offender has to pay a proportionate price. To forgo that price, all else being equal, is to have mercy at the expense of justice.Bob Ross

    We're just not going to agree on mercy and justice, but I'm curious why you think Jesus made such a sacrifice. He's an immortal part of some trinity. So what if he was crucified. It's like Wolverine jumping on the hand grenade to save the squad. So what? It's not heroic or sacrificial if Wolverine just regenerates every time.
  • Gnomon
    4.2k
    True, and the sacrifice of Jesus has clear magical connotations: sacrifice this human, get good crops. So the sacrifice is celebrated at Easter, around the time of the spring equinox, which vaguely coincides with the last frost date in temperate zones. It's a fertility rite.frank
    The myth of god/human sacrifice probably made more sense back in the day, when animal sacrifices were mandatory for many official religions. And the occasional human sacrifice was reputed to be more powerful for getting the goodies. But the sacrifice of a god was of cosmic importance. Obviously some myths were narrative explanations for natural events such as the rebirth of Spring emerging from the death of Winter. Today, we have less inspiring but more technical explanations for natural functions. :smile:



    Gods who sacrificed themselves :
    Many deities in mythology are associated with sacrifice, including self-sacrifice for the benefit of others or to achieve a greater purpose. Some prominent examples include Jesus (Christianity), Osiris (Egyptian), Dionysus (Greek), and Odin (Norse). These gods often die and are reborn, or undergo symbolic deaths and resurrections, in narratives that explore themes of redemption, transformation, and the cyclical nature of life and death.
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=what+gods+sacrificed+themselves
  • Fire Ologist
    1.5k
    The Catholic Church teaches that God Almighty came down from heaven to save us...
    How does a person make sense of this?
    frank

    The Christian narrative is a response to a particular human narrative.

    Christ is supposed to be God becoming a human being, and supposedly for the sake of human beings, who are all dying by our own hands.

    So if we are to interpret the reasonableness of Christ’s response to the human condition (crosses and sacrifices for redemption, and death for eternal life, etc), don’t we need to form some understanding on the narrative describing the human condition, and whether that narrative is reasonable first?

    In plain language, do you assume people, much like other animals, are just making their way the best they can in the universe, naturally doing whatever people have evolved to do? Or do you assume people, unlike the other animals, have some ability to work against their own survival interests, capable of “sinning” against each other selfishly to the detriment of themselves individually and to the detriment of the species, doing what is unnatural?

    What is your starting point as a person, assumed or at least hypothesized, before you ask what is the deal with Christ and the “bizarre” Christian narrative?

    Seems to me Christ will never make sense if you think human beings already make evolutionary sense, on some gradient scale with the other animals, all of them also already making sense.

    OR, if you think human beings do not make sense, that we do absurd things to ourselves and our brothers, you might say the Christian narrative, although nonsense metaphysically, serves as a sort of psychological distraction; so although it may be internally incoherent, it is just the opiate the doctor ordered for the absurd patient that is mankind. So this doesn’t answer your question about the absurdity of the narrative, but explains why it has worked for 2000 years - man is nuts and only a nutty God story will suffice to build room in his mind for “hope” we could be better.

    But this avoids your central question - how does a rational Christian make sense of the Christian narrative? Some of us are no longer affected by opiates.

    My response there is, the best way to start to do so, might be to first make sense of a human narrative - understand who God is dealing with - and only then can we reason our way through a narrative of how Christ is said to have engaged with such a being as a person.

    So, in the words of Pete Townsend, who are you?

    If you are another innocent creature, Christ will never make sense.
  • 180 Proof
    16k
    When you hamstring God by saying, "well, it might be metaphysically impossible for God to do that", you're making God sound very impotent. I get why Christians like Leibniz do that, but it's a very weak ad hoc move. Prima facie, this is obviously not the best of all possible worlds.RogueAI
    :up: :up:

    :smirk:
  • Bob Ross
    2.3k


    I am not sure the relevance of that point, but to answer: the primary cause of incarceration is, without a shadow of a doubt, the culture in which a person lives. The reason thugs in rough neighborhoods don't make it through high school is not because the high school doesn't give them the opportunity to get a basic education: it's because they are too busy being enveloped in crime, and I'm not saying they are primarily to blame necessarily for that. When your dad is in prison, your mom in at work constantly with no one supervising you, no one parent or father figure teaching you how to be a good person, and constantly being around thugs....that's a recipe to becoming a thug yourself.

    Likewise, if you just throw the opportunity to get a decent job to a gangbanger, that won't solve their problems. They are still stuck in that culture. Address the culture, and you make real change.
  • Bob Ross
    2.3k


    Well yeah, that's the point. Gratuitous pain sucks. It's useless.

    You are assuming there is such a thing as pointless pain. I don’t believe that.

    Why would it be metaphysically impossible? The human body has some very poorly "designed" features. I don't see why it would be metaphysically impossible for God to have tweaked evolution in a way to give us better bodies with better features and still keep up naturalness appearances. Do humans have to get so much cancer? Lower back pain? Dementia? When you hamstring God by saying, "well, it might be metaphysically impossible for God to do that", you're making God sound very impotent. I get why Christians like Leibniz do that, but it's a very weak ad hoc move. Prima facie, this is obviously not the best of all possible worlds.

    I agree prima facie this doesn’t seem like a part of the best of possible totalities of creation—which is more than just the world itself—but it has to be (from a theistic perspective). I can go through the argument if you would like.

    In terms of the metaphysical (im)possibility of a pain killswitch, I am not contending that it is metaphysically impossible for a natural organism to have that switch. I am contending whether or not it is metaphysically possible to create a world that is ordered in totality to what is perfectly good and be able to have organisms like that. You can’t just think about it in terms of one particular entity in the world: you have to analyze it from the entirety of the creation. You also have to factor in that the totality of creation is not the totality of the world.

    We're just not going to agree on mercy and justice, but I'm curious why you think Jesus made such a sacrifice

    I don’t believe Jesus did; but that the Son has to at some point: it doesn’t matter to me when it happens.

    Why does the Son have to be incarnated by the Father as a human to be sacrificed for our sins?

     ETA: Scratch that. Let's say we have two people, Bob and Alice. Alice is an atheist who lives a decent life and does no great harm to anyone, just minor sins here and there. Bob is a serial killer who's tortured and killed untold numbers of kids. On his deathbed, Bob accepts Jesus into his heart. Alice doesn't. What do Alice's and Bob's punishments look like?

    This is an interesting, provoking, and common counter-example to the idea of mercy and acceptance of the Son—although it isn’t necessarily only facially applicable to Jesus’ forgiveness—and I understand where you are coming from here. I also used to think this way.

    I would say, to be honest, that both would end up in heaven. Let me break down the general theory first and then address your questions directly.

    1. I do not believe that one has to rigidly accept the Son of God (which may be Jesus if you would like) to be saved or that they have to participate in rituals (like baptism) to be accepted. As you alluded to with your example, someone can love God—love love itself: love goodness itself—without knowing the word “God”, having a concept of God that is robust, or having been exposed to some particular religion. God is judging us based off of our choices we make given the fact that we are not absolutely in control of ourselves (as natural organisms) and is evaluating how well we exhibited the virtues and, generally speaking, loved love (Himself).

    2. For the vast majority of us, we have sinned before we die (although infants, e.g., haven’t if they are killed young); so for most of us we have offended God and, as I noted to @frank who ignored me, retribution is evaluated primarily based off of the dignity of the offended party (hence why shooting a rabbit illegitimately is lesser of an offense and deserving of less of a punishment than shooting a human the exact same way). With finite dignities, which are beings that are finitely good, there is a proportionate finite retribution (at least in principle) for every sin which one could, potentially, pay before they die (and thusly “serving their time” for the sin as it relates to the immanent victim—e.g., the human who was murdered). However, a sin is always also an offense against God and God is infinite goodness which is infinite dignity; so no proportionate retribution to something finite whatsoever can repay what is owed. This is why any sin, insofar as we are talking about the aspect of it that is an offense against God, damns us in a way where we ourselves cannot get out.

    3. Loving love—being the a truly exceptional human being—will not repay the debt owed to an offended party with infinite dignity: Alice, or anyone of a high-caliber of virtue, is facially damned if they have sinned at least once.

    4. God is all-just and all-merciful. He is all-just because He is purely actual and a creator, and so He cannot lack at anything in terms of creating; but to fail to order His creation properly is to lack at something as a creator. Therefore, God cannot fail to order His creation properly; and ordering His creation properly is none other than to arrange the dignity of things in a hierarchy that most reflects what is perfectly good—which is Himself. He is all-merciful because He is love and love is to will the good of something for-itself even when that something doesn’t deserve it. Mercy and justice, however, as described above, are prima facie opposed to each other: if, e.g., I have mercy on you then I am not being just and if I am just then I leave no room for mercy. To be brief, the perfect synthesis of the two is for a proper representative of the group of persons that has an appropriate dignity to pay the debt of their sins so that if they truly restore their will to what is right they can be shown mercy.

    5. God must, then, synthesize justice and mercy by allowing a proper representative of humans to pay for our sins; but no human can repay it. It follows, then, that God must incarnate Himself as a human to be that representative. EDIT: I forgot to mention that God is the only one that can repay the debt because He is the only one with infinite dignity to offer as repayment.

    6. The Son must be the one out of the Godhead that is incarnated because God creates by willing in accord with knowledge; His knowledge of Himself is what He uses to incarnate Himself; and the Son is His self-knowledge.

    So, let me answer your questions with that in mind:

    1. Alice and Bob have NOT committed equal sins: I don’t think that the fact that any given sin is unrepayable to God entails that all sins are equal. It just entails that all sins require something of infinite dignity to properly repay. Admittedly, it gets kind of weird fast working with retribution for infinite demerit. For example, in hell both of them will be punished for eternity but Alice’s punishment would be something far far less than Bob’s.

    2. Since God saves us through His mercy (as described before), God does not have to punish us if we repent; and repentance is not some superficial utterance “I am sorry!” or, for your example, “Jesus I accept you!”. Repentance is normally through the sincerity of heart and through actions. A person who has never heard of God at all could be saved, under my theory, because they sincerely love love itself—God Himself—through action and this doesn’t need to be a perfect life that was lived (since God must sacrifice Himself to Himself to allow for mercy upon us). Alice, I would say, would be repentant in action and (most probably in spirit) for any minor sins she commits because she is such a good hearted person. If she were to do a lot of things that are virtuous but have the psychological disposition that doing good and loving her community, family, friends, etc. is horrible and something she despises; then she isn’t really acting virtuously. That’s like someone helping the poor as a practical joke or something instead of doing it out of love.

    3. For Bob, it gets more interesting: your hypothetical eliminates the possibility of the good deeds part of what is normally a part of repentance since he is on his death bed when he has a change of heart. I would say that assuming he is not superficially saying “I am sorry (psst: hopefully I get into heaven this way!)”, then I would say that God’s mercy would allow him into heaven—at least eventually. Maybe there’s a purgatory faze where he is punished a bit for it first: I don’t know. However, what I do know is that Alice will be rewarded more than Bob; because reward is proportionate to the good deeds you have performed and goes beyond giving someone mercy from punishment. I do not believe that everyone in heaven is equal; or that God loves us all the same. That’s hippie bulls**t.
  • Banno
    28.6k
    I've giving you every reason to believe that I believe that I can justify my claims through natural theology; and you keep acting like I haven't done that.Bob Ross
    Yes, you believe that you have justified your claims through natural theology. But have you? Again, the trinity and the son of god, which you apparently believe are conclusions of your argument, are actually ad hoc add-ons. Look again at your second paragraph, for example, where you move from an impersonal absolute simple to "him" to
    The Father is the one that is known; and the Son is the knowledge of Himself.Bob Ross

    There is no argument there that reaches the conclusion that a simple must also be three, just a confusion of misused words. I haven't payed much attention to your actual arguments becasue as arguments, conclusions reached from premises, they are truly dreadful.

    "God is absolutely simple". Ok, a stipulation, god has no parts. "His pure act of will and pure act of thought are identical". Where does the "He" come from? Despite having no parts we can differentiate his will from his action... how's that? But Ok... "He creates by willing something as real" yet "His will and thought are identical", and "His perfect knowledge of Himself is Him thinking of Himself as real" and so on... again and again differentiating parts within the thing that has no parts. "Him knowing Himself generates something real out of Himself"... then isn't he no longer one, and no longer simple? Yes, since "His object of knowledge of this creation is Himself", and yet isn't he seperate from his creation? "He is both subject and object" and yet he is still simple, and undifferentiated... And then, like a rabbit pulled from a hat, "The Father is the one that is known; and the Son is the knowledge of Himself." Where did the father and the son come from? Why those words?

    Becasue the bible describes god as male and the father and the son.

    That's not natural theology. (Spinoza does a much better job of taking this style of argument to it's natural consequence, but the pantheist conclusion is not in keeping with revelation, and so is not acceptable to Christians)

    Now we might accept that a paragraph such as that might serve to express a divine mystery, and not be dependent on things such as coherence and validity, but not if you offer it as a piece of philosophy, and so ground it in that narrative.

    That's not a man of straw, but a reflection on what you have actually written. I do not believe I am being unfair to your position, but showing its inadequacies.
  • frank
    17.9k


    Blessed are the cheese-makers, for they shall inherit the earth.
  • Banno
    28.6k
    Seesm to me there has been some movement in your position. That's good.

    My point was that we don’t have to agree on what is sinful to agree that if we sin then there must a punishment; and from there my argument begins.Bob Ross

    Justice, then, is fundamentally about restoring the order of things and not punishmentBob Ross

    It remains that a just god would not seek punishment s such, but restitution and restoration.

    Eternal damnation remains inexplicable.
  • Banno
    28.6k
    Blessed are the cheese-makers, for they shall inherit the earth.frank
    Obviously, this is not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
  • Banno
    28.6k
    I want you to demonstrate to me where the argument from change, going back to Aristotle, depends on divine revelation to demonstrate the existence of God.Bob Ross
    But that's not what I pointed out. The conclusion that god is father, son and spirit is not a cogent consequence of natural theology, but is dependent on revelation.

    I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN.Bob Ross
    I noted that earlier. I don't much mind what you choose to call yourself. I'm trying to address what you have written.

    Do you have anything to contend with in terms of the actual concepts of divine simplicity, pure actuality, etc.?Bob Ross
    Those terms are at least specialised Thomist terminology with their own language game, or perhaps just language on vacation, verging on word salad.

    You are pretending to know my motivations for accepting arguments like the one from change; and you are painfully mistaken.Bob Ross
    I attempted to infer what might justify your accepting what to me appear quite odd, idiosyncratic bits of language. In doing so I made reference to why others have done much the same.

    It appears that you are trying your best to give a logical and reasoned account of a narrative that is inherently incoherent. I'm sorry if pointing this out appears disrespectful, but looking into logic and language is what we do here. You seem to be justifying an iron age myth using Greek logic. We might have moved on since these things were fashionable.
  • RogueAI
    3.3k
    Why does the Son have to be incarnated by the Father as a human to be sacrificed for our sins?
    Bob Ross
    Reveal
    ETA: Scratch that. Let's say we have two people, Bob and Alice. Alice is an atheist who lives a decent life and does no great harm to anyone, just minor sins here and there. Bob is a serial killer who's tortured and killed untold numbers of kids. On his deathbed, Bob accepts Jesus into his heart. Alice doesn't. What do Alice's and Bob's punishments look like?

    This is an interesting, provoking, and common counter-example to the idea of mercy and acceptance of the Son—although it isn’t necessarily only facially applicable to Jesus’ forgiveness—and I understand where you are coming from here. I also used to think this way.

    I would say, to be honest, that both would end up in heaven. Let me break down the general theory first and then address your questions directly.

    1. I do not believe that one has to rigidly accept the Son of God (which may be Jesus if you would like) to be saved or that they have to participate in rituals (like baptism) to be accepted. As you alluded to with your example, someone can love God—love love itself: love goodness itself—without knowing the word “God”, having a concept of God that is robust, or having been exposed to some particular religion. God is judging us based off of our choices we make given the fact that we are not absolutely in control of ourselves (as natural organisms) and is evaluating how well we exhibited the virtues and, generally speaking, loved love (Himself).

    2. For the vast majority of us, we have sinned before we die (although infants, e.g., haven’t if they are killed young); so for most of us we have offended God and, as I noted to @frank who ignored me, retribution is evaluated primarily based off of the dignity of the offended party (hence why shooting a rabbit illegitimately is lesser of an offense and deserving of less of a punishment than shooting a human the exact same way). With finite dignities, which are beings that are finitely good, there is a proportionate finite retribution (at least in principle) for every sin which one could, potentially, pay before they die (and thusly “serving their time” for the sin as it relates to the immanent victim—e.g., the human who was murdered). However, a sin is always also an offense against God and God is infinite goodness which is infinite dignity; so no proportionate retribution to something finite whatsoever can repay what is owed. This is why any sin, insofar as we are talking about the aspect of it that is an offense against God, damns us in a way where we ourselves cannot get out.

    3. Loving love—being the a truly exceptional human being—will not repay the debt owed to an offended party with infinite dignity: Alice, or anyone of a high-caliber of virtue, is facially damned if they have sinned at least once.

    4. God is all-just and all-merciful. He is all-just because He is purely actual and a creator, and so He cannot lack at anything in terms of creating; but to fail to order His creation properly is to lack at something as a creator. Therefore, God cannot fail to order His creation properly; and ordering His creation properly is none other than to arrange the dignity of things in a hierarchy that most reflects what is perfectly good—which is Himself. He is all-merciful because He is love and love is to will the good of something for-itself even when that something doesn’t deserve it. Mercy and justice, however, as described above, are prima facie opposed to each other: if, e.g., I have mercy on you then I am not being just and if I am just then I leave no room for mercy. To be brief, the perfect synthesis of the two is for a proper representative of the group of persons that has an appropriate dignity to pay the debt of their sins so that if they truly restore their will to what is right they can be shown mercy.

    5. God must, then, synthesize justice and mercy by allowing a proper representative of humans to pay for our sins; but no human can repay it. It follows, then, that God must incarnate Himself as a human to be that representative. EDIT: I forgot to mention that God is the only one that can repay the debt because He is the only one with infinite dignity to offer as repayment.

    6. The Son must be the one out of the Godhead that is incarnated because God creates by willing in accord with knowledge; His knowledge of Himself is what He uses to incarnate Himself; and the Son is His self-knowledge.

    So, let me answer your questions with that in mind:

    1. Alice and Bob have NOT committed equal sins: I don’t think that the fact that any given sin is unrepayable to God entails that all sins are equal. It just entails that all sins require something of infinite dignity to properly repay. Admittedly, it gets kind of weird fast working with retribution for infinite demerit. For example, in hell both of them will be punished for eternity but Alice’s punishment would be something far far less than Bob’s.

    2. Since God saves us through His mercy (as described before), God does not have to punish us if we repent; and repentance is not some superficial utterance “I am sorry!” or, for your example, “Jesus I accept you!”. Repentance is normally through the sincerity of heart and through actions. A person who has never heard of God at all could be saved, under my theory, because they sincerely love love itself—God Himself—through action and this doesn’t need to be a perfect life that was lived (since God must sacrifice Himself to Himself to allow for mercy upon us). Alice, I would say, would be repentant in action and (most probably in spirit) for any minor sins she commits because she is such a good hearted person. If she were to do a lot of things that are virtuous but have the psychological disposition that doing good and loving her community, family, friends, etc. is horrible and something she despises; then she isn’t really acting virtuously. That’s like someone helping the poor as a practical joke or something instead of doing it out of love.

    3. For Bob, it gets more interesting: your hypothetical eliminates the possibility of the good deeds part of what is normally a part of repentance since he is on his death bed when he has a change of heart. I would say that assuming he is not superficially saying “I am sorry (psst: hopefully I get into heaven this way!)”, then I would say that God’s mercy would allow him into heaven—at least eventually. Maybe there’s a purgatory faze where he is punished a bit for it first: I don’t know. However, what I do know is that Alice will be rewarded more than Bob; because reward is proportionate to the good deeds you have performed and goes beyond giving someone mercy from punishment. I do not believe that everyone in heaven is equal; or that God loves us all the same. That’s hippie bulls**t
    .

    I'm sorry, but that's just word salad to me. I give up.
  • Bob Ross
    2.3k


    I apologize: I thought retribution semantically referred to restoration. Retribution actually refers to punishment. I was referring to restoration this whole time with the term retribution.

    I can see, either way, that the God of the OT is inconsistent with my understanding of God's nature; including His wrathfulness. So we aren't in disagreement there.
  • Bob Ross
    2.3k


    But that's not what I pointed out. The conclusion that god is father, son and spirit is not a cogent consequence of natural theology, but is dependent on revelation.

    I gave you as a response an argument for it that was not dependent on revelation. I’ll give to you again:

    God is purely actual and an intellect (nous).
    1. An intellect that has the ability to learn has potential.
    2. God has no potential (since He is purely actual).
    3. Therefore, a part of God being fully realized as an intellect is that He must know everything perfectly that could exist or does exist.
    4. He must, then, immediately know (prior to creation) Himself perfectly.
    5. When He creates, He is willing something as real.
    6. Since He is absolutely simple, His willing and thinking are identical.
    7. Therefore, Him willing something as real is identical to Him thinking of something as real.
    8. Therefore, when He thinks of something as real it must create something.
    9. His perfect self-knowledge is Him thinking of Himself as real.
    10. Therefore, His perfect self-knowledge creates something real.
    11. What is created as real when He thinks of something as real is that something which is the object of His thought (e.g., He thinks of a man as real and the man, the object of thought, becomes real).
    12. What is the object of His thought when self-knowing is Himself.
    13. Therefore, He creates (generates) Himself as the object of His thought by Himself as the subject of thought.
    14. This creation cannot create a god separate (ontologically) from Himself; because He is thinking of a being, as the object of His thought (which is Himself), that is absolutely simple and no two absolutely simple beings can exist.
    15. Therefore, His creation of Himself out of Himself produces a real relation between Himself distinct in origin but not concrete nature.
    16. This real relation, His self-knowledge’s generation of Himself, is subsistent because it is real.
    17. This real, subsistent relation is a person because He is thinking of Himself and He is a being of a rational nature; so, too, Himself as created must be a being of a rational nature and a being of a rational nature is a person.
    18. This person, His self-knowledge, is the Son; and He is called the Son because the Son is begotten (is generated or created) by God as the one thinking which is the Father (and He is the Father, metaphorically, because He gives life to the Son as opposed to receiving it like pregnancy).
    19. Since God has perfect self-knowledge, He must know Himself as perfectly good (and He is perfectly good because goodness is the equality of a thing’s essence and existence and His essence and existence are absolutely identical).
    20. His willing and thinking are identical because He is absolutely simple.
    21. Therefore, Him thinking of Himself as perfectly good is identical to Him willing Himself as perfectly good.
    22. Love is to will the good of something for its own sake.
    23. God, then, in knowing Himself as perfectly good wills Himself as perfectly good and this is done purely for its own sake because He cannot be affected by anything (because He is purely actual).
    24. God, then, perfectly loves Himself.
    25. The degree of love for a thing is proportionate to how much one wills its good for its own sake and how good that thing is.
    26. God wills Himself as perfectly good as what is perfectly good.
    27. Therefore, God loves Himself the most.
    28. Him creating something, as noted before, is just Him willing something as real.
    29. He wills as real His own good supremely.
    30. Therefore, something is created (generated) out of the love between the Father and the Son.
    31. This generation is not a knowledge of Himself, like the Son, but a willing of what is good—Love.
    32. This willing of the good has as its object Himself.
    33. This willing, then, is a generation or creation of Love for Himself out of Himself.
    34. Being real, a generation or creation, this Love cannot be merely the kind of love directed towards things (like when we, as one being, will the good of another) but, rather, must be a real relation in God distinct in origin between Himself and Himself but not in concrete nature (because what is being willed, and thusly created, is nothing but Himself as the object of that willing).
    35. This Love must be, then, a person because a person is a being of a rational nature, God is a being of a rational nature, and this real relation between God and Himself refers to Himself which is a being that is absolutely simple (so it doesn’t generate a new god out of it).
    36. The person of Love is the Holy Spirit.

    What about this requires divine revelation? Are you referring to each person being semantically called the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? If so, those are metaphors: they’ve always been metaphors. The fact these have historical roots in Christianity doesn’t mean this argument depends on divine revelation. You could call them Perfect Knowledge, Perfect Knower, and Perfect Self-Love if you want.

    I'm trying to address what you have written.

    You never address what I write though: you keep referring to Christianity as if that has any bearing on the arguments I have given. I would be willing to bet you will ignore my elaboration on the Trinity above like last time and appeal to Christianity somehow. This is like the third time I’ve outlined the Trinity argument from natural theology to you.

    Those terms are at least specialised Thomist terminology with their own language game, or perhaps just language on vacation, verging on word salad.

    Irregardless, do you agree that it is natural theology?!??

    It appears that you are trying your best to give a logical and reasoned account of a narrative that is inherently incoherent. I'm sorry if pointing this out appears disrespectful, but looking into logic and language is what we do here. You seem to be justifying an iron age myth using Greek logic. We might have moved on since these things were fashionable.

    That’s not insulting: that’s fine. I’ve been trying to get you to engage in the metaphysics instead of straw manning me with Christianity this whole time. Please feel free to show me why this metaphysical framework fails.
  • frank
    17.9k

    So you're making up your own religion?
  • Banno
    28.6k
    I thought retribution semantically referred to restoration.Bob Ross
    ok, that makes sense of some of the things you have said. Thank you.

    Retribution has a curious etymology, apparently referring back to considerations between the three tribes of Rome - from tri..., tribe, tribune, tribute, and retribution. So it originally had more of the flavour you suggest. Now it is about punishment.

    You never address what I write thoughBob Ross
    I devoted just under three hundred words to directly addressing a single paragraph, .

    But I'll do it again, for your 36-point argument.

    I think it a terrible argument. It pretends to be syllogistic, to be of the form of a series of syllogisms, but mixes metaphorical statements, leaps over unarticulated premisses, sliding from ontological claims to personalistic language, without logical mediation. The pretense of syllogistic form masks a series of conceptual sleights of hand, category shifts, and metaphorical intrusions.

    This is the nature of the Thomistic style, featuring notions such as divine simplicity, pure actuality, pure intellect, and causal emanation via knowing and willing, all of which are to say the least questionable.

    Despite claiming god to be a simple, it juxtaposes will and intellect; subject and object; father and son and so on. But those distinctions are the very thing denied by divine simplicity. The argument rests on this contradiction. Now we know that a contradiction implies anything, so we should be wary of an argument that is so dependent on contradiction.

    Then there's the idea that if god thinks something is real, it becomes real. Let's set aside the issue of how this debars god from thinking about things that are not real - the common "what if..." of modality. In thinking about himself he somehow brings about the Son. Is the Son then the same as that thinking, and so not more than a thought, or is the Son a second being caused by God's thinking of himself - in which case he is not simple, not One Being? These and other objections will result from the very notion that to think something, for god, is to create it, since in doing so god must drop the distinction between existing and being thought about. But we have that distinction for good reason.

    In more modern terms there is a play on the use of the existential operator, a slide from using it as second order predicate to a first order predicate, that is invalid in ordinary predicate logic. Assigning a predicate to an individual presumes there is an individual, it cannot create that individual. See Inexpressibility of Existence Conditions.

    Then there is the point I made earlier, the use of anthropomorphic language on which the charge of presuming what you wish to conclude rests. Is this language built into the argument, or is it stretching abstract reasoning to meet revelation? It smells like Anselm's "...and this we all call god"; a conclusion unsupported by the proceeding argument, but fitting it neatly into already accepted doctrine. A slight of hand.

    Let's look at a sample.
    . 6. Since He is absolutely simple, His willing and thinking are identical.
    7. Therefore, Him willing something as real is identical to Him thinking of something as real.
    8. Therefore, when He thinks of something as real it must create something.
    It's not a syllogism, since it misses the hidden assumption that thinking of something as real necessarily makes it real. God, then, can' think of things that are not real, something that is routine for us. So what we have here is a loaded metaphysical claim, not a deduction, as well as the contradiction in being an absolute simple and yet having identifiable will and intellect.

    Reiterating, one problem is that the argument assumes divine simplicity but proceeds by introducing various juxtapositions and differentiations.

    Another is that it unjustly slides from the language of necessity into the language of revelation.

    Another is that it apparently invalidly moves from a second level existential predication to a first level existential predication - it derives the existence of a thing from it's properties.

    Another is the ambiguity of key terms such as "create", "real", "person" and so on.

    And the main objection, that it is guided by a doctrinal target.

    Now I am sure you will be able to mount a defence for each of these objections. That in itself is problematic, since it will add to the count of 36 lines... Sure, you are able to add and add and add, explaining to yourself why this argument makes sense - but is that enough? Don't you aslo want an argument that others will accept? At what point do you give up the whole enterprise as a Bad Lot?

    I've already done so.
  • Count Timothy von Icarus
    4.1k


    Despite claiming god to be a simple, it juxtaposes will and intellect; subject and object; father and son and so on. But those distinctions are the very thing denied by divine simplicity. The argument rests on this contradiction. Now we know that a contradiction implies anything, so we should be wary of an argument that is so dependent on contradiction.

    As I pointed out earlier, this is a misunderstanding. There is only a contradiction if we assume that:

    A. Any distinctions made vis-á-vis God require/imply composition. However, this is not the case. And;

    B. All distinctions must be real, and not rational/notional distinctions.

    This demand that all distinctions be real is particularly problematic. Must a glass that is called "half empty" necessarily be a different, distinct metaphysical entity from the same glass when referred to as glass "half full?" Such a demand would be particularly fatal for nominalism. It would require that any meaningful speech about anything be based on real metaphysical distinctions. If "true" can be said of all that is, for instance, it would require that truth somehow be metaphysically distinct from, and thus beyond the category of being (which is itself supposed to be maximally general). The goodness of a good car would have to be metaphysically distinct from the car, etc.

    If we say: "a simple thing exists," and "a simple thing is non-composite," are we thereby actually committed to a composite simple thing, since we must distinguish the simple thing's existence and its non-composite nature, because we have made a distinction between the two? And because it might also be called "something" or "true," is it also composed of "somethingness" and "truth?"
  • Wayfarer
    25.3k
    A visiting theologian once presented this diagrammatic representation of the Trinity which I, at least, found useful in understanding the idea:

    Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg
  • frank
    17.9k

    That's three contradictions.
  • Wayfarer
    25.3k
    How so? Could you unpack that for me?
  • Banno
    28.6k
    As I said, Thomists will be able to mount a defence for each of these objections.

    Must a glass that is called "half empty" necessarily be a different, distinct metaphysical entity from the same glass when referred to as glass "half full?"Count Timothy von Icarus
    Can you substitute "half-empty" for "half-full"? In most cases, yep. We call those cases "extensional contexts", and we may use substitution for our definition of equivalence. Doing so drops the whole archaic discussion of "real metaphysical distinctions" and "beyond the category of being".

    Seems to be a much cleaner approach.
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