I don't know the mind of all men but... I'm pretty sure that very few people would say

if I don't live forever then everything I do is just a waste of effort — intrapersona

What do you think led you to this impasse? (And it is an impasse -- you are definitely not going to live forever).

The proper course for you is clear enough, and its the same for everyone else: whatever worthwhile, acts of kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity (and more) you are going to perform, you had better do it while you are here.

I don't know the mind of all men but... I'm pretty sure that very few people would say — Bitter Crank

You must be living under a rock then. That question is incredibly popular. Just type into google "why live if you are going to die?" and see the immense amount of posts,articles, blogs etc. I have even seen it on this forum quite a bit.

The proper course for you is clear enough, and its the same for everyone else: whatever worthwhile, acts of kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity (and more) you are going to perform, you had better do it while you are here. — Bitter Crank

Why is kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity the prime motive of my life? Tbh all I wanna do is fuck bitches get money... forever...

Yet despite this, I know that the appreciation of beauty does not depend on eternal existence. — intrapersona

How/why do you know that?

So, if it doesn't last... "forever"...why do good things versus atrocious things? Shouldn't I just do what catches my fancy? After all, eternity won't know the difference. How do you predicate this idea that I should do useful things?

Because you don't have to live forever in order for you to appreciate beauty.

Seems purely arbitrary. I actually agreed with everything you said in your OP other than this statement; the plague of posting on a philosophy forum: we focus on the negative. So, props on your OP, but...you said "the appreciation of beauty does not depend on eternal existence", I asked how/why you know that: you said: "because you don't have to live forever in order for you to appreciate beauty". So, basically this sounds like...some kind of fallacy, I'm too rusty on all of them to call it out. But, the simple point I wanted to make was: You made no argument as to why "the appreciation of beauty does not depend on eternal existence."

You must be living under a rock then. That question is incredibly popular. Just type into google "why live if you are going to die?" and see the immense amount of posts,articles, blogs etc. I have even seen it on this forum quite a bit. — intrapersona

Of course, "seeing it on this forum" is not much of a recommendation, really. Some people here go on at considerable length about the imposition on beings that don't exist yet of conceiving them and bringing them to birth. without their consent. How nonexistent beings can give consent is beyond me.

Tbh all i wanna do is fuck bitches get money... forever... — intrapersona

I suppose you could aim a bit higher, but if that's all you want to do, you still have to do it in the limited time you have here. So you had better get busy and start fucking those bitches before time runs out. Where does money figure in there?

So, if it doesn't last... "forever"...why do good things versus atrocious things? Shouldn't I just do what catches my fancy? How do you predicate this idea that I should do useful things? — Noble Dust

Is your judgement as to whether it is better to do atrocious things or good things affected by whether you have 1 day or an infinity of days to do them? I wouldn't think the time remaining on the clock would make any difference.

What is the wellspring of atrocities and beneficences? Isn't it whether your mind is driven by cruelty or love? Bitterness vs. sweetness? Resentment or acceptance?

I suppose you will do whatever catches your fancy at least some of the time. So will I. We do useful things, don't we, in order to obtain the results of utility, and because we have decided (for some odd reason) that useful things are better than things without any use whatsoever?

Mostly our choices of actions are predicated on the short run--sometimes the next 15 minutes. Once in a great while we plan to act for the intermediate future (say, 25-50 years). We all find it pretty difficult to think about a longer range future, like a century. Are you making any plans for late August, 2117? Probably not.

I know I don't want to live forever because that would be a drag, but i feel instinctively deep down in my unconscious like i want to live forever. — intrapersona

I also think living forever would be a drag - a great big monumental fucking drag. It would be hell itself.

But... do you have so much access to your unconscious mind that you know it (your unconscious) wants to go on forever?

And even if your unconscious mind wants to live forever, who is running the show -- you or your unconscious?

Seems purely arbitrary. I actually agreed with everything you said in your OP other than this statement; the plague of posting on a philosophy forum: we focus on the negative. So, props on your OP, but...you said "the appreciation of beauty does not depend on eternal existence", I asked how/why you know that: you said: "because you don't have to live forever in order for you to appreciate beauty". So, basically this sounds like...some kind of fallacy, I'm too rusty on all of them to call it out. But, the simple point I wanted to make was: You made no argument as to why "the appreciation of beauty does not depend on eternal existence." — Noble Dust

Matters of fact are not fallacious unless you make them. If the appreciation of beauty does depend on eternal existence then that would be a fallacy because RIGHT NOW I am a mortal being and also RIGHT NOW I am appreciating beauty. Perhaps you were thinking of circular reasoning, begging the question, but it isn't.

This does not mean to say that appreciation of beauty can not depend on eternal existence, its just that if it does i know nothing about it because right now I am stuck in some kind of finitude called human existence.

Some people here go on at considerable length about the imposition on beings that don't exist yet of conceiving them and bringing them to birth. without their consent — Bitter Crank

What does this have to do with the OP, or was this a dig at my other thread on people's desires/wishes continuing on after they die? Because in the OP I didnt posit any beings that don't exist...

Is your judgement as to whether it is better to do atrocious things or good things affected by whether you have 1 day or an infinity of days to do them? I wouldn't think the time remaining on the clock would make any difference. — Bitter Crank

Oh really? So is hurting someone for one second the same as hurting someone for 302039493904005930495450694059604596 years? assuming they could live that long to feel that excruciating pain.

My point is... TIME MATTERS!

I didn't say you did, but others have. Which is fine, more posts to them. No, it wasn't a dig at your post on desires continuing after death.

Now that you mention it, I'll have to come up with a really good dig for you.

What is the wellspring of atrocities and beneficences? Isn't it whether your mind is driven by cruelty or love? Bitterness vs. sweetness? Resentment or acceptance?

I suppose you will do whatever catches your fancy at least some of the time. So will I. We do useful things, don't we, in order to obtain the results of utility, and because we have decided (for some odd reason) that useful things are better than things without any use whatsoever? — Bitter Crank

So are you saying that love,sweetness,acceptance is useful in the sense of utility? I wouldn't disagree about that. Society functions on those sort of principles so that we all get along and don't fuck each other over. But predicating it as a reason to exist? Maaaan, that's a whole different ballgame...

Like I am sure you know, the universe isn't implicitly good or bad. Therefore it makes no difference how you act in your life,that is "objectively". It only matters in how it improves you life in the direction you want it to. For a psychopath, hurting others improves their life so don't assume that kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity are the things that I had better do before i die. Why? well attack this argument coming up in the next paragraph:

It makes no difference if I just sit in my bed for the next 20 years than if I spent it helping people, being kind, loving and creative? Why? Because everyone dies in the end and the experiences are lost forever, everything is meaningless so there is no point guiding anything in any direction. We might as well just die right now. (Obviously there is a flaw in what I just said but you should be the smart one to pick it out, because I can't).

by some standards, (like JC's) a man who hates his brother is already a murderer, so by that measure, whether you wish to hurt someone for a short period of time or an eternity doesn't make much difference.

But you don't have an eternity. Unless you are an unlimited being living, sadly, in a limited world.

by some standards, (like JC's) a man who hates his brother is already a murderer, so by that measure, whether you wish to hurt someone for a short period of time or an eternity doesn't make much difference. — Bitter Crank

Yes it does, it makes ALL the difference. Is hurting someone for one second the same as hurting someone for 302039493904005930495450694059604596 years? Absolutely not!

If this wasn't the case then people would prefer to stay in hospital for months on end with multiple broken bones than just one... The amount of time you feel the pain for is relevant to how bad the experience is... Man o man, how on earth can you not even see that lol?

Tbh all i wanna do is fuck bitches get money... forever...
2 hours ago ReplyShare — intrapersona

You want to be part of the rat race, forever? If there is a hell, I could imagine that being it.

predicating it [love,sweetness,acceptance ] as a reason to exist? Maaaan, that's a whole different ballgame... — intrapersona

Right. Love, sweetness, acceptance, and all that good stuff are not a reason to exist. They are a way to exist.

Like I am sure you know, the universe isn't implicitly good or bad. — intrapersona

Yes. I have often said the universe has no particular meaning, and it doesn't provide us with meaning as one of it's custom services.

Therefore it makes no difference how you act in your life,that is "objectively". It only matters in how it improves you life in the direction you want it to. For a psychopath, hurting others improves their life so don't assume that kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity are the things that I had better do before i die. — intrapersona

Just because the universe can get away with not having any meaning doesn't therefore result in our having no meaning. The universe doesn't need any meaning to do its thing. We do. We are meaning makers, meaning traders, meaning dependent beings.

Hurting others does not improve the lives of psychopaths. Where did you get the idea that psychopaths live to hurt others? Psychopaths aren't demons, they are people with an inability to feel guilt and be guided by fear of punishment. What would improve their (often unhappy) lives is to have normal responsiveness to feelings.

so don't assume that kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity are the things that I had better do before i die. — intrapersona

Is what's good for a psychopath is good for you? Why the hell shouldn't I assume that kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity are the things that you should do before you die? Just guessing, but you probably do these things already, when the opportunity (like, for bravery and mercy) present themselves.

... everything is meaningless so there is no point guiding anything in any direction. We might as well just die right now. (Obviously there is a flaw in what I just said — intrapersona

There is a flaw. The universe may be meaningless, but you aren't meaningless, and your human environment isn't meaningless. Yes, you could go to bed and stay there until you die, which would be an act of self-destructive meaning.

As far as your experiences (your existence) disappearing when you die, that would only be so if everyone who had every had any contact with you in any way, shape, manner or form ALSO DIED when you died. Everyone who had read your posts here, for instance, would have to die with you. The web site would have to disappear too, so nobody else could read anything you said, in the future.

IF we all go together when we go, every Hottentot and every Eskimo, THEN your experiences will disappear FOREVER, because it is the human narrative that carries forward our contributions after we die.

how on earth can you not even see that — intrapersona

Of course I can see that. I am arguing against your view that if you don't live forever, then your life doesn't have any meaning. Or as you say, it would be a "waste of your time". Now there's something to snort over (lol).

It's almost 2:00 a.m. Time for us old folks to hit the hay.

These are exactly threads that make me confused. I deal with thoughts of Why go on living? and everytime I decide there's no point not to go on, here comes along thread that makes me insecure and again gets me in endless cycle of thinking about rationality/irrationality of continuing my life... Seems like I don't believe myself or just need a definite reason what to do and just can't find one.

You want to be part of the rat race, forever? If there is a hell, I could imagine that being it. — John Days

Its was a joke about how ridiculous it is that so many people think that way without a second glance. Something primitive speaks inside for us.

Hurting others does not improve the lives of psychopaths. Where did you get the idea that psychopaths live to hurt others? Psychopaths aren't demons, they are people with an inability to feel guilt and be guided by fear of punishment. What would improve their (often unhappy) lives is to have normal responsiveness to feelings. — Bitter Crank

Psychopaths as I understand them are emotionless tyrants who just want to exploit others for their pleasure. The epitome of a serial killer.

There is a flaw. The universe may be meaningless, but you aren't meaningless, and your human environment isn't meaningless. Yes, you could go to bed and stay there until you die, which would be an act of self-destructive meaning.
As far as your experiences (your existence) disappearing when you die, that would only be so if everyone who had every had any contact with you in any way, shape, manner or form ALSO DIED when you died. Everyone who had read your posts here, for instance, would have to die with you. The web site would have to disappear too, so nobody else could read anything you said, in the future.

IF we all go together when we go, every Hottentot and every Eskimo, THEN your experiences will disappear FOREVER, because it is the human narrative that carries forward our contributions after we die. — Bitter Crank

It is the fact that there is no objective worth that makes my own construction of the value of my life seem pointless. What even is human constructed meaning? You speak of human contribution has if it has some value. What value is human life? We are just a bacteria growing on a ball with the arrogance to think our intelligence is worth something that necessitates that we ought to continue to exist because we are somehow "special" and should not be lost forever. As far as I can see human constructed meaning is just a farcical way for us to convince ourselves not kill ourselves.

Why the hell shouldn't I assume that kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity are the things that you should do before you die? Just guessing, but you probably do these things already, when the opportunity (like, for bravery and mercy) present themselves. — Bitter Crank

You can assume I do those things with validity, I agree. But assuming that those are the things that I want to live for is not accurate. It's not why I get out of bed in the morning, In fact I am so tired with the meaninglessness of those acts... Yes they are helpful and make others feel good, but WHY even do that? Where is it going? It's as if I need a great cosmic foundation of purpose underneath life in order for those gestures (generosity, mercy) to be somehow even worth something, otherwise they are just as meaningless as the waves breaking over sand.

these are exactly threads that make me confused. I deal with thoughts of Why go on living? and everytime I decide there's no point not to go on, here comes along thread that makes me insecure and again gets me in endless cycle of thinking about rationality/irrationality of continuing my life... Seems like I don't believe myself or just need a definite reason what to do and just can't find one. — rossii

You have biological constraints place on you. IE if you want to leave this place you have to do something called "killing" your body somehow... and... if you want to do that you have to find a way to override the survival instinct somehow... The prime motive driving those actions would be the knowledge of how you understand life to exist and a dissatisfaction with how you perceive that knowledge. How can you know whether you can trust your own knowledge of that? Well, the same way you can trust your knowledge of whether it is worthwhile doing any other ordinary thing in life. I will give some examples to illustrate this and each example will get closer to the relevance of my argument:

• Is it worth waking up on saturday and going to my sons football game?
  
• Is it worth not putting my hand on that hot stove?
  
• Is my day worth getting up for today?
  
• Why do I work so hard and is the money worth what I spend it on?
  
• Why do I spend so much effort in surviving and is the experience worth what energy I spend on it?

So, with that being said. Reasoning is trustworthy... BUT ONLY to the truth of that which we perceive with the human mind. Suppose there is truth outside of the human mind and that the universe exists differently than to how we see it and that the constitution and value of a human life is different to how we SUBJECTIVELY perceive it... Why then, we could very wrong indeed. What arrogance we would have to assume we know the truth of such matters as death and consciousness as they pertain to objective existence, ESPECIALLY considering how complex the universe is. Nevertheless, if life's feels that bad, then just fricken leave maaaan.

Its was a joke about how ridiculous it is that so many people think that way without a second glance. — intrapersona

Ahh, I see. Thanks for clarifying. :)

I think you just have to do what makes you happy, it might justify your existence.

Why is kindness, mercy, bravery, love, generosity, creativity the prime motive of my life? Tbh all I wanna do is fuck bitches get money... forever... — intrapersona

I've got to tell you, debating things on a philosophy forum is not, in my view, going to help these stated objectives. You may need a better strategy.

One of mine is to read Samuel Beckett. The novels are underrated. They are all about men enjoying pointless lives, and for me they're curiously uplifting. Ah, so *that's* why I go on. 'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.'

Another comes from my current reading of Emmanuel Levinas. The world of order, science and reasoning on his view aims for 'totality', a complete explanation. But the I-world, the I that encounters the other - that world is infinite, untotalize-able. Even without gods we are infinite subjects. When I compare my feelings to reason, there is always an I-surplus. 'The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom': though Blake didn't have your hedonism in mind, I don't believe.

It's not why I get out of bed in the morning, In fact I am so tired with the meaninglessness of those acts... Yes they are helpful and make others feel good, but WHY even do that? Where is it going? It's as if I need a great cosmic foundation of purpose underneath life in order for those gestures (generosity, mercy) to be somehow even worth something, otherwise they are just as meaningless as the waves breaking over sand. — intrapersona

Sigh. You are an advanced case. Quite beyond my competence, I'm afraid.

You are waves of desire breaking on the jagged rocks of meaninglessness. Find a different shore. There are shores of sand; in the sand you can build the meaning you desire. Impermanent meaningless, you will probably say. You are a difficult case. Yes, impermanent meaningfulness, but that's OK. You don't have to come up with meaning forever. Just until the waves of desire withdraw and you go out to sea with them -- hopefully contented, and a long enough time from now.

Can meaning ever be permanent? Meaning requires context. Context requires change. Therefore meaning can never be permanent.
Why does context require change? Because otherwise it's not context, it's part and parcel.