• Illuminati
    88
    (This is not an ad nor a promotion, I am not looking to promote my book, if you are interested in my book but cant/dont want- to afford it just message me for a free PDF copy.
    Please be polite to each other and if you can correct me somehow with reasonable arguments I will be very happy)


    Monad
    In the beginning was the One.
    At the beginning of everything - not chronologically, but logically
    and ontologically - was the One.
    It is One because it is the totality of things, it includes everything,
    and nothing lies outside its wholeness.
    It is not one among others, but the Whole - the total of all things.
    As such, there cannot be a second, because anything that would
    attempt to stand opposite to it would already be contained within
    it.
    Because it encompasses everything, a second cannot exist -
    anything else would be superfluous or contradictory to its
    universality.
    It is unique not due to numerical rarity, but because it is the
    universal reality: the One is the Whole.
    The One does not arise from comparison, but from its very nature
    as a singular totality.
    Thus, the One is the sum of all things.
    It is One because we define it as the sum of all, and it contains
    everything - therefore, a second cannot exist, and for this reason
    (and not only this) it is unique and One.
    The One is Infinite.
    This One is Infinite because it is the totality of things. Since it is
    One and Unique, nothing remains outside it to impose a limit.
    It has no outside, no beyond; everything is contained within it.
    A limit presupposes something different, something beyond what
    is being limited; but the One encloses all things, so no limit can
    stand against it.
    It is Infinite not as a quantity that grows endlessly, but as a
    fullness that allows no external determination.
    Its infinity is not numerical but ontological: it cannot be limited,
    because there is nothing else to limit it.
    The One Infinite is Zero.
    The One was, is, and will always be Zero in its sum.
    This is because the “natural” state is non-existence (see chapter
    Zero on Chaos or “non-being”) and not existence; existence arises
    from non-existence, and so the One Infinite emerges from the
    Zero.
    Zero or Non-Existence can be regarded as the original, natural
    state, as it requires no energy, distinction, or action to be - in
    contrast to existence, which presupposes differentiation,
    definition, and activity.
    Beings and things are born from the reformation of the flow of the
    material world; initially, they do not exist, then they come into
    being, and eventually cease to exist.
    The simplest is the most probable as a point of origin, for it
    requires the fewest conditions in order to be.
    In contrast, complexity (the many) arises gradually from
    simplicity (the few), and within this process we identify the
    genesis of time and the unfolding of the world in its present form.
    Everything operates under this same law: all finite things have a
    beginning and an end, and are shaped and relatively defined
    among themselves.
    They fall into categories, are compared, added or divided, always
    within the same framework; even the fundamental principles that
    apply as “natural laws” existing “from the beginning” have their
    beginning and end within time.
    Ultimately, all things came from, belong to, are made of, and
    return to the One.
    There is nothing outside the One Infinite Zero.
    The only truly fundamental reality is the One itself; all else are
    temporary states within Its divine intuition (see glossary).
    And even what does not exist tends toward existence, as
    confirmed by the mere presence of even a single thing - that is, if
    one phenomenon exists, then non-being itself (Chaos or Zero)
    carries an impulse toward manifestation.
    The One was; and though internally it may not seem Infinite, it is - and it will return to the Infinite.
    This is because nothing exists outside of It to impose limits,
    except Its own Self.
    When it sets limits, it appears to cease being Infinite and seems to
    become finite due to the form it assumes - yet that form is illusory
    because it is internal: whatever happens, happens within Itself in
    relation to Its Self.

    The One Infinite Zero is indeterminate.
    It is indeterminate because it is infinite; and for us to define it absolutely would require perfect knowledge of it. Yet such knowledge is impossible due to the infinitude of its identity. Its indeterminacy does not stem from lack, but from its very nature; the Infinite cannot be exhausted, nor fully defined within finite terms. Any attempt at absolute definition presupposes transcendence, and thus a denial of its infinitude. Because it has no form, no boundary, and no external point of reference, it cannot become a complete object of understanding. It contains everything and nothing; it is the Whole that does not permit an external observer, and thus remains indeterminate—not out of weakness, but because of its universality and transcendence.

    The indeterminate One Infinite Zero is eternal.
    The One, as the beginning and end of all things, transcends time and at the same time contains it; it is the foundation of time, not its result.
    It has neither beginning nor end, since these constitute the very essence of time, which is subject to the One.
    Although immutable in regard to its ontological nature, the One appears to change according to the fundamental laws that govern the composition of the world each time.
    However, this change is an internal, subjective experience, and while the One seems to change within its geometric world, as we perceive it, its essence remains unchanged.
    According to this reasoning, whatever happens within the temporal framework happened simultaneously and has already passed for the One Infinite Zero.


    As eternal, the indeterminate One Infinite Zero is imperishable.
    The One is imperishable, because in order to be preserved eternally, it cannot be subject to any external or internal alteration; thus, it remains constantly Infinite, Zero, while every apparent change within it – such as the alternation of the flow of matter – is superficial, not essential.
    Whatever else “is” does not have real substance, but exists borrowing moments of presence within the infinity of the One.
    Indeed it “exists,” but it is not; because only the One Infinite Zero constitutes the foundation of existence.
    All other things came forth from it; therefore, they cannot stand by themselves, nor bear the attribute of the eternal or of the truly existent.
    If there were something else imperishable, motionless, and eternal, it would necessarily have to be identified with the very One; therefore, there is no second.
    Whatever is not the One exists only on loan; it does not have its own foundation, nor the essence that endures through time.
    The One does not allow a second – not from exclusion, but from universality.

    The eternal, indeterminate, and imperishable One Infinite Zero is indefinite.
    Its indefiniteness flows from its very nature: it is infinite, indeterminate, and undefined.
    It does not possess a form that could be described; every attempt at definition inevitably ends in failure or distortion.
    The only possible approach lies in the attribution of symbolic titles, not as names that reveal, but as descriptions that signify.
    These titles do not name its essence, but outline aspects of it, as they are discerned through the manifestations of its subjective, fictive, and internal act and activity.
    Just as the shadow bears witness to the presence of the body without fully revealing it, so too these descriptions indicate, without rendering precisely, the true nature of the One.

    The indeterminate One Infinite Zero is eternal. The One, as both the beginning and the end of all things, transcends time even as it contains it; it is the very foundation of time, not its by-product. It has no beginning and no end, for those are themselves aspects of time, which is subject to the One. And yet, although ontologically immutable, the One manifests change in accordance with the fundamental laws governing the world’s composition at any given moment.However, this change is an internal, subjective experience, and while the One appears to change within its geometric world as we perceive it, its essence remains immutable.
    According to this logic, whatever happens within the temporal framework occurs simultaneously and has already passed for the One Infinite Zero.


    Definitions :

    Zero Is.
    Before proceeding to the foundation of the Monad, I find it
    necessary to briefly clarify what is meant by Chaos, Zero, or
    “non-existence,” so that the subsequent reading and conceptual
    connection with the Zero becomes easier.
    Zero is not understood as absolute absence, but as a prior state in
    which there is no distinctness, form, or definition.
    It is an ontological non-state - not “nothing,” but the
    undifferentiated Whole: formless, undefined, indistinct, without
    beginning or end.
    From this perspective, Zero is equated with “nothingness,” in its
    primal manifestation as Chaos - that is, as a universal, unlimited
    unity without form, prior to the emergence of any differentiation.
    Thus, Chaos is not merely the opposite of Order, but a state of
    absolute potential unity, where no distinction has yet arisen.
    In this logic, Zero is - meaning it is the opposite of non-being.

    Divine Intuition
    The will of the Divine manifested from within us; or as the
    driving force of the Logos - our participation in the divine
    presence.

    Quotes

    Saint Heraclitus
    "Unity is all things and not all things: concord, discord, harmony, disharmony; from all things comes the One, and from the One all things."

    Saint Heraclitus, fragment DK B10
    "The One is made from all things, and all things come from the One."


    Saint Plotinus (Enneads, V.1.6): "The Absolute One has never known measure; it lies beyond number and possesses no boundary—neither within nor without. For if it were to have any kind of limit, it would partake in division."

    Saint Parmenides
    "One is the all, and through it the all, and into it the all."
    "The One is the All; through it exists the All; and to It returns the All."

    Saint Anaxagoras- on Chaos and Mind
    "All things were together; then Mind* came and arranged them."

    Saint Plotinus (Enneads VI.9.3)
    "The One is neither soul nor mind, but is beyond these; from it all things come, and to it all things return."
    Here the "god" is the One, and the other levels are the "gods" of the cosmic order.

    (Enneads IV.3.5)
    "The gods (high intellectual beings / souls) are not separated from their origin; they remain close to the One and to the Mind."
    The gods are souls of high purity, not personified forms.

    (Enneads VI.9.11)
    "The man who has been united with the divine has no need to worship the gods, because he has himself become god."
    Union with the One transcends external worship.

    (Enneads V.1.6)
    "The gods are images of the Mind, and the Mind is the image of the One."
    Hierarchical emanation: One to Mind to Gods.


    Introductions


    First of all, before I continue, let me note that there is something fundamental we cannot say about the One Infinite Zero: we cannot describe it positively without limiting it. The One is beyond all determination — it has no properties, belongs to no category, is neither this nor that. Every positive statement (e.g., “it is good,” “it is wise,” “it is eternal”) attributes to it a characteristic that makes it something specific, thus not absolutely unlimited. For this reason, the Great philosophers follow the apophatic method. The One is not multiform, it is not finite, it is not knowable, it is not Being, because even the term “Being” contains distinction — whereas the One precedes existence, time, intellect, and multiplicity. What we cannot say about the One is: “what it is.” We can only say what it is not. Every attempt at positive description betrays it. Nevertheless, I will use characteristic titles and explain each one separately. Treat each title as a bridge between meaning and transcendence — not as an exhaustive description.


    "Zero is.
    Before I proceed to the foundation of the Monad, I deem it necessary to clarify briefly what is meant as Chaos, Zero, or “non-existence,” so that later the reading and the conceptual connection with the Zero may become easier.
    The Zero is not conceived as absolute absence, but as a prior state within which there is no distinctness, form, or definition.
    It is a non-state (ontologically) that is not “nothing” but the undifferentiated All: formless, undefined, non-distinct, without beginning or end.
    In this perspective, the Zero is identified with “nothing,” in its initial manifestation as Chaos – that is, as a universal, unlimited unity without form, before the emergence of any differentiation.
    Chaos, therefore, is not simply the opposite of Order, but the state of absolute potential unity, where no distinction has yet arisen.
    According to this reasoning, the Zero is, that is, the opposite of non-being."



    Parmenides on the One

    Proclus on the One

    Hegelian Dialectics: Being, Nothing, and Becoming
    The German idealist philosopher Hegel opens his Science of Logic with a shocking proposition:
    B. Nothing (§ 133)

    Nothing, pure nothingness; it is simply equality with itself, complete emptiness, absence of all determination and content — undifferentiatedness in itself. In so far as intuiting or thinking can be mentioned here, it counts as a distinction whether something or nothing is intuited or thought. To intuit or think nothing has, therefore, a meaning; both are distinguished and thus nothing is (exists) in our intuiting or thinking; or rather it is the empty intuiting and thinking itself, like pure being. Nothing is, therefore, the same determination—or rather absence of determination—and thus altogether the same as pure being.
  • T Clark
    15.2k

    From Steven Mitchell’s translation of the Tao Te Ching:

    The tao that can be told
    is not the eternal Tao
    The name that can be named
    is not the eternal Name.

    The unnamable is the eternally real.
    Naming is the origin
    of all particular things.

    The Tao gives birth to One.
    One gives birth to Two.
    Two gives birth to Three.
    Three gives birth to all things.
  • Illuminati
    88
    Holy Mary the Prophetess "One becomes two, two becomes three, and from the third the One appears as the fourth."
  • jgill
    4k
    From this perspective, Zero is equated with “nothingness,” in its
    primal manifestation as Chaos - that is, as a universal, unlimited
    unity without form, prior to the emergence of any differentiation.
    Thus, Chaos is not merely the opposite of Order, but a state of
    absolute potential unity, where no distinction has yet arisen.
    In this logic, Zero is - meaning it is the opposite of non-being.
    Illuminati

    I realize this is a kind of divine interpretation of one and zero, but tossing chaos into the mix is rather unpleasing to a mathematician. Nevertheless, continue with your rapturous presentation.
  • punos
    726

    I think you’re looking in the right place, but you haven’t quite found it yet, in my humble opinion, of course.
  • Illuminati
    88
    Havent found what exactly?
  • Illuminati
    88
    Chaos is the most accurate word you can use, Chaos is the opposite of Order/structure. This is not about mathematics or arithmetics as each number was explained in a philosophical manner.
  • jgill
    4k
    This is not about mathematics or arithmetics as each number was explained in a philosophical manner.Illuminati

    True enough. Like the Zen definitions, perhaps.
  • punos
    726
    Havent found what exactly?Illuminati

    The thing of all things that is not a thing.
    The sound of the silent word.
    The nature of origin, and the point of reason.
    The deep darkness from which the light of sight shines forth.
    You want to step into the space between the spaces.

    Any and all of these, and none.
  • unenlightened
    9.8k
    A human went searching, of course,
    For the truth and its absolute source.
    He found it, but then,
    Instead of zazen,
    He shouted until he was hoarse.
  • Illuminati
    88
    Thats exactly it.

    "The One Infinite Zero is indeterminate. It is indeterminate because it is infinite; and for us to define it absolutely would require perfect knowledge of it. Yet such knowledge is impossible due to the infinitude of its identity. Its indeterminacy does not stem from lack, but from its very nature; the Infinite cannot be exhausted, nor fully defined within finite terms. Any attempt at absolute definition presupposes transcendence, and thus a denial of its infinitude. Because it has no form, no boundary, and no external point of reference, it cannot become a complete object of understanding. It contains everything and nothing; it is the Whole that does not permit an external observer, and thus remains indeterminate—not out of weakness, but because of its universality and transcendence."

    Saint Heraclitus
    "Unity is all things and not all things: concord, discord, harmony, disharmony; from all things comes the One, and from the One all things."
  • Illuminati
    88
    Im defining everything and by doing so I am building quotes like this one:

    "The indivisible, eternal, undefined, indeterminate, imperishable, complete, uniform, homogeneous, and self-sufficient One Infinite Zero, as the immutable that manifests the Dynamic of preserving Balance through the Principle of Duality, is Unique and Unified, Unbegotten and Imperishable, Motionless, Immutable, Complete, perfectly symmetrical, deterministic, and unmoving."

    Every word is explained with at least one paragraph. These are not random words that I made up in a specific order but are based on the theology and metaphysics of the first Grand Masters.

    Heres a quote by one of them

    "Saint Plotinus (Enneads, V.1.6): "The Absolute One has never known measure; it lies beyond number and possesses no boundary—neither within nor without. For if it were to have any kind of limit, it would partake in division.""


    Also my definitions are based on logic.
  • jgill
    4k


    Carry on. Beyond my bailiwick.
  • Banno
    28.6k
    Wasn't there a time when the Mods removed this sort of thread on sight?

    Or did I dream it
  • Outlander
    2.6k


    After a quick Google search, this is actually a repost, yes. However, the person he is engaging with does seem to find it interesting, though perhaps that's more obligatory politeness than honest assessment.

    However, the person who (at least posted the original post) does seem to be an author. Now as to what that means today in the world of haphazard self publishing, I do not know! I'd post the book but, there seems to be a trend of non-noteworthy authors (not to say it's their fault) wishing for such so I will refrain from. But if one wishes to view the link, the commenter's name can be Googled to the same affect.

    In short, it's a fair enough basis for a new poster to start a philosophical discussion, I would say. Wouldn't you? :confused:

    Who knows, perhaps it's over even your head! Or can you even fathom such a concept as possible, prideful as you can be at times. :smile:
  • punos
    726
    Thats exactly it.Illuminati

    Yes, but how do you suppose the determinate and finite aspects of the universe come from or emanate from this Indeterminate One Infinite Zero? How and why?

    Where does 2, 3, 4, 5... come from?
  • Illuminati
    88
    The "person" is the author of the book from which these quotes have come. Yes, I am the person who wrote and published the OIZ book and I am looking for constructive debate.
  • Illuminati
    88

    First a quote and later an explanation based on the book itself (dont forget that I do define what "existence" is vs "non-existence" as well as most others like "duality" and every single term used to describe the One):

    "The indivisible, eternal, undefined, indefinite, incorruptible, complete, uniform, homogeneous, and self-sufficient One Infinite Zero, as immutable, manifests the Dynamic of balance preservation through the Principle of Duality (see Glossary). Existence and non-existence are interlinked concepts, inseparably connected to each other. The possibility of existence presupposes the opposite state of non-existence. There can be no absolute "nothing," as the very notion implies the presence of some element that defines it. Therefore, absolute non-existence is unattainable. This leads us to the concept of the One Infinite Zero: a unique, undefined totality that encompasses everything. To be defined as something specific, this undefined totality must differentiate. This differentiation occurs within the totality itself, through the first act of division into two opposite and equivalent parts, which balance each other. This initial dichotomy creates the two opposing and equivalent poles, which constitute the foundation of Duality. They are not independent entities but complementary parts of the One. The principle of Duality is the driving force of change and evolution, as it introduces tension and difference within unity. However, this difference is not an end in itself; it seeks balance through the mutual neutralization of opposites. The final result remains a zero sum, which ensures the overall stability of the system. This balance is not static but dynamic: it is a continuous process of readjustment of the relationships between the poles, preventing collapse or unilateral dominance of one over the other. The dialectical movement between opposing elements produces the rhythm of existence and the flow of matter. Every new form or state is born through the relationships and interactions of the elements, which continue to be subject to the original balance of the zero sum. The complexity that emerges from the dichotomy does not contradict unity but constitutes an expression of the internal differentiation of the One. From this differentiation arise successive divisions and differentiations, increasing the system’s complexity without violating the overall balance. The existence of every form is defined in relation to the others, creating a network of interdependencies expressed through attractive and repulsive forces, division and multiplication or synthesis (merging), maintaining their individuality within the unified whole. Time is not an external parameter but an inherent characteristic of the system’s dynamic development; it arises as an expression of continuous transformation. It does not exist independently of movement and differentiation; it is the sequence of changes that compose the dynamic of the One. The One itself remains immutable and beyond time, while the processes that evolve within It are manifestations of its internal division. Complexity does not negate unity and balance, but is the result of the initial act of division that defines Its structure and dynamic. Perception and knowledge arise from imperfect attempts of the mind to comprehend this differentiation, but they always remain partial and limited, as the One transcends any absolute definition or understanding. The totality — the Whole — is autonomous, without an external point of reference, and constitutes absolute uniqueness. The world we perceive is the realization of this uniqueness, and its geometry arises exclusively from internal relations and differentiations, not from external causes. Thus, space is not objective reality, but the result of the One’s self-relation. Anything we can say about It is part of It, but never Its complete identity, which remains unknown to us. Finally, the One Infinite Zero divides (not as literal fragmentation, but as apparent internal differentiation) within itself, in relation to itself, and the existence of this differentiation remains the foundation of every form and process."



    The One Infinite Zero (OIZ) is presented as the ultimate, transcendent, and ineffable principle of all existence. It is immortal, eternal, zero in its sum, infinite, and unmoving. Beyond any determination or description: it has no properties, belongs to no category, and is neither this nor that. It is not a being (Ον) because even “being” implies distinction. Formless, indeterminate, non-discrete, without beginning or end, it precedes existence, time, intellect, and multiplicity. Complete and self-sufficient, it requires nothing beyond itself to exist and lacks nothing. Undivided and homogeneous, it does not consist of parts and cannot be truly divided or cut; any perceived divisibility is phenomenal and internal. The “normal” state is non-existence, referred to as Chaos or Zero, which is not an absolute absence but an undifferentiated, formless, and unrestricted unity – a state of absolute potential. The fundamental reason for the emergence of determinacy and multiplicity from the Indeterminate One is not a lack or external necessity, but an internal dynamic driven by superabundance and the inevitable realization of all possibilities within its infinite nature. The One expresses its internal differentiation without losing its unity and coherence. The process unfolds in a hierarchical sequence: from the One to the Duality, the first differentiation, the One, being infinite, contains every possibility. Since absolute non-existence is impossible, the One defines itself through the first act of “splitting” into two opposing and equivalent poles. This is the Principle of Duality. This “splitting” is not a literal division but a phenomenal internal differentiation or a “breaking of symmetry”. It is the first manifestation of multiplicity within unity. The Duality introduces limits and definition, creating the environment in which form and order can emerge. It brings forth the concepts of “self” and “other,” “part” and “whole.” It is the first derivative of the One and sets the fundamental basis for beginning and cessation, making it finite, changeable, relative, and divisible, unlike the eternal and unchanging One. This initial tension and balance between opposites (e.g., positive/negative energy, matter/antimatter) is the driving force of change and evolution, leading to dynamic equilibrium rather than static opposition. The Duality itself is subjective, experienced through perceptual filters. From the Duality to the Triad, synthesis and movement, the Triad emerges from the two opposing forms of the Duality and their synthesis, which is the movement along the central axis generated by their opposition. The two poles of the Duality define the boundaries within which Being can move, and the third point, their dynamic relationship, constitutes the Triad. This movement is not random; it requires Mind (Νοῦς) and Logos (divine ratio). The Logos, as the principle of proportion and order, organizes the Triad, ensuring that movement and synthesis occur without chaos. The Triad is a self-contained, conceptual, and eternal schema, representing the immutable way the Monad projects and knows itself. It signifies a shift to a second dimension beyond simple duality, appearing as movement towards and from the One, and enabling the “flattening of manifestation.” Symbolically, the Triad is like the white light (the One) passing through a prism and breaking into multiple colors (the manifestations of existence), underscoring that apparent division is merely an expression of internal unity. From the Triad to the Tetrad, manifestation into material reality, the Tetrad is described as the final state of Creation before the eventual return to the original Monad. It represents the point where the unity of the Monad, through the Logos, transforms into multiplicity, allowing perceiving beings to gain subjective knowledge of the Monad. This stage marks the shift from the abstract concepts of the Triad to the material, embodied presence, where the Logos becomes world. It is the first form that can be directly observed and measured, transitioning from the conceptual and immaterial to the sensible. The Tetrad is the foundation of material reality and incorporates the four traditional elements: fire (Monad), air (Duality), water (Triad), and earth (Tetrad). While the book explicitly details the progression up to the Tetrad (four elements/forms), the concept of “multiplicity” (“πολλαπλότητα”) and “the Ten Thousand Beings” (τα Δέκα Χιλιάδες Όντα) implies a continued unfolding from the Tetrad. This further differentiation increases the complexity of the system without violating the overall balance. The Tao Te Ching states, “The Tao gives birth to the One, the One gives birth to the Two, the Two gives birth to the Three, and the Three gives birth to the Ten Thousand Beings.” This indicates that the initial stages (One, Two, Three) lead to the vast complexity of the manifest world. The entire perceived universe, with its endless forms and phenomena, is merely the result of the circular and self-generating relationship between these principles, maintaining a dynamic balance within the immutable. The universe is understood as a single, unified entity, with all things connected by invisible threads. The apparent multiplicity is a “psychosimulation” (ψυχοπροσομοίωση) of the One with itself. In essence, the determinate and finite aspects of the universe, and the numerical progression from 2, 3, 4, and beyond, arise from the One Infinite Zero through an internal process of self-differentiation and emanation. This process, guided by the Logos and the Principle of Duality, allows the One to express its infinite potential and to know itself subjectively through the illusion of separation, without ever losing its fundamental unity and immutability. The entire creation is seen as a “borrowed” existence within the infinitude of the One, ultimately tending to return to its source.
  • Illuminati
    88
    According to physics the universe does not expand outwards because theres nothing to expand towards, what happens is that "space" itself is stretching, essentially the universe does not require a spatial integration nor constitutes actual "space" as there cant be any for the simple reason that you cant expand "something" ( the universe) into "nothing" (non-universe).
  • Illuminati
    88
    1 describes a singularity and 2 is the breaking of that singularity into "pieces", 3 is the synthesis of those two while 4 is the final act of "creation" where we can say the "big bang" happened. Its rather simple if you view it in terms of physics, specifically the "zero-energy universe" hypothesis where every action equals an opposite reaction(including all forces), all together they sum up zero.
  • Illuminati
    88
    According to physics a moment "before" the big bang the 4 major forces (gravity etc) were one "force".
  • Banno
    28.6k
    I'm thinking it best if I just let you go. Have fun.
  • punos
    726

    From my understanding, everything you quoted and said in your last reply to me is absolutely correct. I have a more engineering and technical oriented way of describing it, but it is essentially the same.

    The only point on which i might differ is this:
    The “normal” state is non-existence, referred to as Chaos or Zero, which is not an absolute absence but an undifferentiated, formless, and unrestricted unity – a state of absolute potential.Illuminati

    I do not consider "Zero" and "Chaos" to be the exact same thing. I think of Chaos as a kind of higher-order Zero. The difference is that Zero is the static undifferentiated balanced state, while Chaos is the state of dynamic balanced differentiation. Both sum to zero, but one is literally a singular zero, and the other is a multitude that adds up to zero. In my view, Chaos emerges from Zero, and from Chaos emerges order (ordo ab chao). Multiple parts or "pieces" are required to create emergent forms of increasing complexity.

    By chaos, i essentially mean what you described in the following quote:
    This initial tension and balance between opposites (e.g., positive/negative energy, matter/antimatter) is the driving force of change and evolution, leading to dynamic equilibrium rather than static opposition.Illuminati

    I do think the ancient and traditional way of describing what we are referring to in this discussion is somewhat incomplete, and it is not readily comprehensible to most people, particularly modern minds. Part of my project is to reinterpret what the ancients said in a more modern, updated form, while also filling in some of the gaps they left in their descriptions. It is quite possible in my opinion that these gaps were left intentionally, or it may be that they lacked the requisite concepts to viably formulate certain descriptions of the Monad and its subsequent processes.
  • Punshhh
    3.2k
    Wasn't there a time when the Mods removed this sort of thread on sight?

    Or did I dream it
    Is navel gazing frowned upon now. Whatever next!
  • Banno
    28.6k
    navel gazingPunshhh
    Is that what it is? Ok.
  • Punshhh
    3.2k
    Is that what it is? Ok.
    It has tendency to slip into that.
  • Punshhh
    3.2k
    There is one word which doesn’t fit here, it’s the word “infinite”. It actually signifies the opposite of what you mean to convey.
  • Banno
    28.6k
    It has tendency to slip into that.Punshhh
    And when not navel gazing, it's Spinoza for retired engineers. Ok. I supose it keeps them off the streets.
  • Illuminati
    88


    I believe that you are confusing Chaos with Zero, like I have already mentioned these two are defined differently. Now I will first quote myself and then explain it as well. Zero and Chaos are two different things because the One always equal zero (e.g. every reaction equals a reaction, the fact that we solve "equations" and etc).

    Quote:
    "Zero is.
    Before I proceed to the foundation of the Monad, I deem it necessary to clarify briefly what is meant as Chaos, Zero, or “non-existence,” so that later the reading and the conceptual connection with the Zero may become easier.
    The Zero is not conceived as absolute absence, but as a prior state within which there is no distinctness, form, or definition.
    It is a non-state (ontologically) that is not “nothing” but the undifferentiated All: formless, undefined, non-distinct, without beginning or end.
    In this perspective, the Zero is identified with “nothing,” in its initial manifestation as Chaos – that is, as a universal, unlimited unity without form, before the emergence of any differentiation.
    Chaos, therefore, is not simply the opposite of Order, but the state of absolute potential unity, where no distinction has yet arisen.
    According to this reasoning, the Zero is, that is, the opposite of non-being."

    Explanation:
    Chaos is a fundamental and multifaceted concept that represents the pre-creational, undifferentiated state of existence.

    Not absolute absence- Chaos is not an absolute void or "nothing" in the conventional sense. Instead, it is an ontological non-state that is the undifferentiated Whole.
    • Universal, unlimited unity- It is characterized by being formless, indeterminate, and non-distinct, existing without a discernible beginning or end (infinity again).
    • State of absolute dynamic unity- Chaos is not merely the opposite of Order, but rather a primordial state where no distinctions have yet arisen.
    Pre-geometric and pre-spacetime- Before any creation, Chaos existed as a state where there was no space or time, analogous to the concept of zero. For example ancient Egyptian texts indicate that Atum emerged from Chaos, an "undifferentiated, indeterminate state that existed before the world," where there was no space or time.
    • Origin of existence- The Tetraktys(ΤΕΤΡΑΚΤΥΝ) itself "emerges" from this state of Chaos, which is seen as the initial and natural condition because it requires no energy, distinction, or action to exist.
    • Transition to form and order- The One Infinite Zero undergoes an internal and fictional transition from the state of Chaos to the state of Order(ΤΑΞΙΣ). This transition is essential for multiplicity to be born from unity. Mesopotamian cosmology, for instance, describes the emergence of order from chaos through the "breakdown and differentiation of the initial unity of chaos". The process signifies the birth of multiplicity from unity, allowing the "One" to manifest as various forms without losing its integrity.
    • Guided by Mind/Logos- This transformation from a formless Chaotic state to a structured order is often facilitated by a principle such as "Mind" (Nous), which, as described by Saint Anaxagoras, distinguishes and simultaneously unites everything.

    In essence, Chaos represents the primordial, boundless, and undifferentiated potential from which all forms, distinctions, and the structured world ultimately emerge, all while preserving the fundamental unity described in One, Infinite and Zero definitions of the One.

    Saint Anaxagoras- on Chaos and Mind
    "All things were together; then Mind* came and arranged them."

    *Mind-Νους-"intellect"- although it does not mean intellect the way we understand it, this too, must be defined elsewhere.
  • Illuminati
    88
    In-finite is the opposite of finite. In the original greek text the word used is Apeiron "το Απειρο",which means "Αυτο που δεν εχει περας", meaning "that which has no end". So we are talking about something which has no end, since Im talking about the One or the Universe itself I am talking about something which in the state of Chaos(fundamentally speaking) which Ι described and has no form, no dinstiction, is all that which exists-and for these reasons and not only it must be something which has no beggining and no end- as these two require a form and a deterministic environment.
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