I’m inclined to think that people’s behavior has little bearing on the truth of their beliefs. We can do good things for bad reasons, and we can follow the moral code of fictional characters from novels, yet still perform righteous acts.

The fact that so much evil has been done in the name of Christianity has no bearing on whether there's a god or not.

Are the philosophical arguments much better? Are any of those cartoonish in your view? — DingoJones

I’ve never heard any that are convincing to me personally, but there’s nothing cartoonish about Leibniz’s argument from contingency or Plantinga’s evolutionary argument against naturalism.

I used to be an atheist up to my early twenties but as a grew older I had some personal experiences which swayed me rather than scripture which I never found convincing to begin with. — kindred

Fair enough. The issue with personal revelation and experience is that, for others, it’s just hearsay. (Is that Hume?) Whoever it is, it sounds fair. I’ve heard many first-hand accounts of experiences: Indian girls who say they encountered Krishna, Muslim cab drivers who report seeing Muhammad and the angel Gabriel, Christians who say they saw Mary or ‘felt’ the Holy Spirit. I’d be more convinced if the Hindu girl encountered Jesus and the Muslim cab driver saw Krishna. It seems to me these experiences are primed by culture and expectation.

Yeah that’s cultural bias, the experience I had was not encountering such things but I simply heard a voice in my head say a certain phrase which was very rare only for it to be said by a family member a few minutes later. Obviously the shocking thing was to hear something in my head in the first place almost like a loud voice and not the usual internal monologue, to have this exact phrase repeated by a family member truly shocked me which is why I believe that there’s a higher power, for what else could explain it. For the record I’m not a schizophrenic and the scenario I’ve just described has only happened once but that’s all it took to convince me.

The fact that so much evil has been done in the name of Christianity has no bearing on whether there's a god or not. — Tom Storm

Unless the god in question could/would/should stop or curb that evil. The fact that there is no intervention, even just a quick “do not kill in my name” from a mountain top or something, suggests no such being exists. No? I mean why wouldn't an all good god say orvdo something?
Or what about prayer? Thats behaviour, can we not judge from the lack of prayer return calls that perhaps there is no such being?

Unless the god in question could/would/should stop or curb that evil. — DingoJones

Sure, but for me the problem no one can demonstrate what God believes or what God’s properties are, so any claims about god's relationship to evil or to good are moot and at best, tradition. So for someone to say God is good or that God responds to prayer is on them. But these models of God have no bearing on whether there is a God or not, only on what people claim about God. What difference does it make what the claims are, or what an old book might say about God? God may well be a cunt. Is there any way we can demonstrate either way for certain?

For the record I’m not a schizophrenic and the scenario I’ve just described has only happened once but that’s all it took to convince me. — kindred

I work in the area of mental health. Plenty of people have one off experinces of voices, noises and other odd symptoms and do not have a diagnosis. So there's that.

Obviously the shocking thing was to hear something in my head in the first place almost like a loud voice and not the usual internal monologue, to have this exact phrase repeated by a family member truly shocked me which is why I believe that there’s a higher power, for what else could explain it — kindred

Lots of people hear voices, their names being called, or other meaningful things via voices in their heads. Not everyone turns to God to make sense of it. If you do, that’s fine—but for me, this isn’t a reason I would see as justification for a God.

I believe that there’s a higher power, for what else could explain it. — kindred

No offence intended, but that's a classic 'argument from ignorance fallacy' - "I don't know how else to explain X, therefore God."

God is a con in my opinion, it completely abstracts what good means. I don't like when people conflate morality with God-ism--- morality is a nice clean concept in itself.

Most of the bible on God is fluff, but it's mixed in with some wise words and supposedly an historical account. I don't think the bible in its current state is what it was once was envisioned to be.

God brings about more evil in the world; and that's separating God from the rest of the bible, which could credibly bring about good in the right context.

I'm not even sure if the original bible contained God. It could just be another act of evil(editing a good, educational book for thought control).

I am schizophrenic too. I, however, think that my subconscious mind could also deceive me, giving me false hallucinations. I am not denying spirituality either. It could be real.

s there any way we can demonstrate either way for certain? — Tom Storm

Not beyond Cartesian doubt obviously, but It think we can be reasonably certain….but it sounds like you believe no one has any knowledge about god, from the bible or otherwise. Is that correct, and if so why do you suppose that is?

but it sounds like you believe no one has any knowledge about god, from the bible or otherwise. Is that correct, and if so why do you suppose that is? — DingoJones

Even many theists, especially the apophatics, argue that nothing sensible can really be said about God. It’s all mystery. I just take their move one step further: if that’s the case, why not forget about it and piss the God idea off altogether?

In the end, I think theism (as I’ve often said) is a matter of preference, much like sexual orientation: you can’t help what you’re attracted to. It’s shaped by culture, upbringing, aesthetics, and a person’s preferences for how they construe meaning.

... [M]odels of God have no bearing on whether there is a God or not, only on what people claim about God. — Tom Storm

:up: :up:

(from 2022)
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/774731
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/774753

Even many theists, especially the apophatics, argue that nothing sensible can really be said about God. It’s all mystery. I just take their move one step further: if that’s the case, why not forget about it and piss the God idea off altogether? — Tom Storm

As we should with all things reduced to “mystery” as a description.

In the end, I think theism (as I’ve often said) is a matter of preference, much like sexual orientation: you can’t help what you’re attracted to. It’s shaped by culture, upbringing, aesthetics, and a person’s preferences for how they construe meaning.
7h — Tom Storm

I disagree here. I would call it need rather than preference. Some people seem to need religion or god or mystery or whatever and some people do not, some people are comfortable with no greater meaning and some are not. Preference implies an array of different paths on a journey but actually its a matter of being on a journey or not in a journey at all.
I think even when a meaning seeker rejects religion they will find another path to it by another name. The ones who aren’t searching for meaning (or at least meaning beyond the physical world), aren’t selecting any preferences because they aren’t looking for anything (beyond the physical world)

I disagree here. I would call it need rather than preference. Some people seem to need religion or god or mystery or whatever and some people do not, some people are comfortable with no greater meaning and some are not. Preference implies an array of different paths on a journey but actually its a matter of being on a journey or not in a journey at all. — DingoJones

I don’t disagree with this. All I mean is that some people are 'turned on' by theism and some are not, just as some are attracted to boys and not girls. I meant preference in that sense, that it is essentially an orientation rather than a reasoned choice. But I think “need” works fine too in a broader sense. And I would include the need 'not to believe' in God along with the 'need to believe'. Both atheism and theism could be understood as sources of affective satisfaction.

I think even when a meaning seeker rejects religion they will find another path to it by another name. The ones who aren’t searching for meaning (or at least meaning beyond the physical world), aren’t selecting any preferences because they aren’t looking for anything (beyond the physical world) — DingoJones

It has sometimes interested me how many atheists actually believe in supernatural claims. It’s only God they don’t accept. Some atheists I’ve known believe in astrology, ghosts, clairvoyance, and other occult phenomena. So I’m not sure what the connection between God, religion, and the occult actually is for some folk. It’s more the Dawkins-style atheists who are galvanised by empiricism who seem to find any supernatural thesis anathema.

That's interesting, Tom! Thank you for this perspective. I'm glad to hear that my experience isn't universal!

:up: :up:

In the case of what you've said, Tom, that you can't help what you're attracted to - I see this as part of the initial indoctrination.

All I mean is that some people are 'turned on' by theism and some are not, just as some are attracted to boys and not girls. — Tom Storm

To compare it to a deviance..I don't know if I'd go that far.

However, if it's truly an individual preference, I haven't seen this to be the case. Everyone I know has been altered by religious ideology - that includes Catholic, Baptist, as well as other Protestant religions.
In my view, it's absolutely unnecessary to follow a deity.

I think that good people want to be truly decent and caring and that they may be attracted to a philosophy that reflects this outlook on life. It's been true for me, but I never had a chance when I was a kid as I was force-fed the beliefs of my family of origin. My experience isn't an anomaly, it's pervasive in the Christian communities that I've been exposed to.

I think even when a meaning seeker rejects religion they will find another path to it by another name. — DingoJones

Agreed. Humanity is hard-wired to bring meaning to our experiences. If they reject religion, they will find another way, many of them New Age. I also explored some of these ideas back in the day and rejected them as well. It's strange what some folks will accept as their new religion. As I see it, a philosophical perspective that embraces science and rejects superstition (particularly the sky/man/god idea) is the most practical.

To compare it to a deviance..I don't know if I'd go that far. — Paula Tozer

I don't see homosexuality as a deviance. If you do then you're missing my point.

In my view, it's absolutely unnecessary to follow a deity. — Paula Tozer

My point is not connected to whether it is necessary to follow a deity. My point is that some people are drawn to this form of meaning making and some are not. I see much of this as an innate disposition, an orientation or preference. Are contingent factors like culture, linguistic practices, and upbringing involved? Of course.

Everyone I know has been altered by religious ideology - that includes Catholic, Baptist, as well as other Protestant religions. — Paula Tozer

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by ‘altered' could you give an example? But isn’t it fair to say that most beliefs alter us in some way? Politics, culture, and art all leave their mark on us. Some radically so.

Any views on Buddhist, Sikh, Hindu, Parsi, or Jain faiths?

I don’t disagree with this. All I mean is that some people are 'turned on' by theism and some are not, just as some are attracted to boys and not girls. I meant preference in that sense, that it is essentially an orientation rather than a reasoned choice. But I think “need” works fine too in a broader sense. And I would include the need 'not to believe' in God along with the 'need to believe'. Both atheism and theism could be understood as sources of affective satisfaction. — Tom Storm

The point of disagreement is “reasoned choice”. Obviously it depends on the specific belief or claims but in general I think a lack of belief can be reasoned choice. As you pointed out atheists can belief in similar non rational things as the average believer and I would agree but also think an atheist can have arrived at atheism by “reasoned choice”. Im much more hesitant to say the same about a theist.

It has sometimes interested me how many atheists actually believe in supernatural claims. It’s only God they don’t accept. Some atheists I’ve known believe in astrology, ghosts, clairvoyance, and other occult phenomena. So I’m not sure what the connection between God, religion, and the occult actually is for some folk. It’s more the Dawkins-style atheists who are galvanised by empiricism who seem to find any supernatural thesis anathema. — Tom Storm

I think it is because these “atheists” are of the meaning seeker type but are just upset with religion and reject it for whatever reason.

The point I was making was that religion alters people. It skews their thinking by placing artificial limits on the way people conduct their lives. Societies without religious ideology evolve differently...more naturally, I think, than do those with a culture based upon "fear/respect for a god." It's impossible to determine how we would have been different if we had been brought up in a pre-colonial indigenous culture, or in any culture that was different than the one in which I was raised.
I completely agree that politics, culture, and art all have their influences. On this point, I also ask you to consider the role that religion has played in each of these different aspects of human life. My initial point with the post was to ask readers to consider the basis for most of the contention and separation that we see globally as being religious ideology. It is pervasive and runs so deep that it cannot be separated without determined effort.
I've studied the philosophical component of Buddhism to a certain degree, and I resonate with a lot of what they teach.
As for the other religions you mentioned, I'm not schooled in their practices and cannot comment.
All I know is Christianity and its variations. However, when it becomes dogma, like any religious practice that inhibits or ostracizes people, it's not my vibe.

Are you a 'meaning seeking' type of person such as you have described? Where do you sit on this?

On this point, I also ask you to consider the role that religion has played in each of these different aspects of human life. My initial point with the post was to ask readers to consider the basis for most of the contention and separation that we see globally as being religious ideology. I — Paula Tozer

Yeah well this is a subject so familiar and well covered by atheists that it's close to being a banal observation. I've made the point innumerable times in my atheist proselytising days and on this site we sometimes get members who are active for a while, who hate religion and have little else to offer the God debate than Dawkins or Hitchens style polemics. Not saying you're one of those, just that this style of argument appears here often enough.

Personally I think humans fuck everything up, whether it’s secular or religious. Our drive for control and conformity perhaps. Amongst my friends I count a number of Christians, a priest and a sister too, who are extraordinarily tough on religion and believers and no fans of the oppressive history of the church. There are Christians and Sikhs whose company I prefer over many doctrinaire atheists I've known.

Are you a 'meaning seeking' type of person such as you have described? Where do you sit on this? — Tom Storm

I am not. Ive spent a lot of time talking to those folks and learning but I don’t seem to be built that way. Where I stand depends on what the claim is but in general Im not moved by appeals to “mystery, “the transcendent”, “the universe” or other such vacuous basis. I guess Im comfortable a) not knowing and b) that there is no greater meaning to it all. Perfectly content with the mere mortal meaning found in friends and family.

Personally I think humans fuck everything up, whether it’s secular or religious. — Tom Storm

HA! I agree, we have a way of messing with a good thing...power hungry, most trying to be the top gun in a world where violence reigns. It's interesting to hear your perspective - a person who no longer shouts his atheist perspective from the rooftops. I've noticed, among those who do not believe in a deity of any sort, that they do take great pleasure in being right - at least on the forums I've visited. Whether the perspective has had the life flogged out of it or not, it's still relevant to our discussion, I think. To your point - I've listened to Dawkins and Hitchens, and even though they are much closer to the truth than I believe that religion can be, I do not agree with their aggressive posture. Where I live, it's very hard to find someone of like mind (at least so far). My frustration with anyone who accepts what they've been told on blind faith stems from my background and experiences. A priest and a nun who are tough on religion...very interesting...I wonder what they actually know to be true for them?
As a creative, I've come to understand something that may be interpreted as me "believing" in something - some kind of higher power - but I do not consider it to be that way. I have lived and felt the power of inspiration in my life. It's why I write. It's why I'm a creativity coach - I love helping other people feel that surge of power that comes from a mind-spark of inspiration. I believe that inspiration is the result of tapping into the quantum field, collapsing the wave, and drawing what you wish to create into life. It's as close to real magic as I've ever felt. For me, that's my sacred.
However, I also believe that creativity is neutral - inspiration can be used for good or for evil. We have been seeing it play out on a global scale for as long as I can remember.