A tree produces a seed in order to produce another tree. If you just look at the seed and say "oh that's not a tree, obviously it failed let's destroy this tree" one quickly notices an error in judgement. Belief systems call this arrogance or pride. Society calls this impatience and prudence. Science calls this just being wrong. Remember that. — Outlander

I don't see the relevance. If the seed fails in producing a tree it demonstrates its own faultiness.

I don't see the relevance. If the seed fails in producing a tree it demonstrates its own faultiness. — Metaphysician Undercover

Of course. But my point is sometimes we jump the gun, per se. Some flowering plants take hundreds of years to produce fruit. People don't live hundreds of years. So, by all apparent rational sense, you could be like "oh look this plant doesn't do anything" when in reality you're dead wrong. Literally. :lol:

Come on you should know this stuff. This isn't elementary school.

I already gave good reasons why it isn't a case of premature judgement.

Thanks for that description.

I think we can learn quite a lot from these sort of experiences, it’s like a window into hidden parts of our world that we don’t ordinarily see*.

For example; I have come to realise that extremely inprobable events and coincidences happen all the time. Probabilities equivalent to a lottery win. The probability that the crowd of dancers would part like that is extremely low. I have many other experiences which confirm this observation**. And yet, very few few of us notice these events, or if we do, realise the significance.

Secondly; for this event to happen, there was a collective action between all the people involved. So in a sense the crowd, including myself and the small chap, were acting as one cohesive organism. Which might suggest that we act as one organism more often than we might expect.

Thirdly; there was some kind of calling, need, requirement for the two of us to see each other and have our interaction***. I have had numerous encounters with people which involved exchanging of glances, as intense, or meaningful as this, indeed even more so. So have come to view such interactions as a window to the soul, or something like that.

Fourthly; and this point involves another encounter at the same event, aswell. The realisation that brief meetings between particular people can have a meaning, or significance, way beyond what we might expect. And that some kind of group communion is going on within populations.

This leads me to conclude a number of things about our world and humanity, which are not overtly evident and that there are deeper meaning and far reaching processes and purposes at play in our world about which we know nothing (in particular).

* we are blind, or blinkered to it. Although some cultures are not so blind and embrace it.

** I know about probability, chance and random events. But I am putting it in the context of a human life and the rarity within the experiences of a person for such improbable events to happen with meaning, within their particular path of experience. And that through the development of the skills of observation, one can come to see these events more and more and make use of them.

***the implication being that there is something going on at a soul, or spirit level in the beings involved.

This isn't elementary school.

We are all still in kindergarten, but don’t realise it. We are playing with our shiny toys and passing them around in our own little worlds pretending to be important, or saying important things. While the grown ups are in the next room keeping an eye on us. Just to make sure we don’t go pressing any big red buttons out of curiosity.

For example; I have come to realise that extremely inprobable events and coincidences happen all the time. — Punshhh

I strongly agree. That's why there is sayings like "truth is stranger than fiction". I believe it has something to do with the variety of possibility. Possibility extends through such a vast array of features of a vast array of activities, far beyond the capacity of the most imaginative minds. That is why superstition extends to such a broad array of habitual activities. You'll find that people who work in a career where luck and chance are significant factors (such as sports games) pay very strong attention to the most minute factors of daily life. They are said to be superstitious. Very small things, which are not even noticeable to most people can end up having a large effect on what happens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect

Secondly; for this event to happen, there was a collective action between all the people involved. So in a sense the crowd, including myself and the small chap, were acting as one cohesive organism. Which might suggest that we act as one organism more often than we might expect.

Thirdly; there was some kind of calling, need, requirement for the two of us to see each other and have our interaction***. I have had numerous encounters with people which involved exchanging of glances, as intense, or meaningful as this, indeed even more so. So have come to view such interactions as a window to the soul, or something like that. — Punshhh

These two features involve a non-conscious relation between individuals, which will act to amplify the minute factors of possibility, through multiplication.

Here's an analogy. Consider that a living body is composed of a multitude of small parts, individual cells, or even the smaller parts, parts of a cell and the parts that act between cells. Each part is acting out its own role, by what it is inclined to do by the deterministic laws of physics, while leaving open minute factors of possibility. That is, it is still free to make a different move, one which would appear to be chance, or random. Also, there must be an non-conscious relation between all the different parts, so that the possibility which is left open by each individual is multiplied by the possibility left open by each other, allowing for coincidental apparent chance or random acts. This "coincidence" acts to "amplify possibility". When the whole, as a group, does something unexpected, the effect of amplified possibility is realized. We observe this, "the effects of amplified possibility" every time a being makes an act which we designate as freely chosen.

Fourthly; and this point involves another encounter at the same event, aswell. The realisation that brief meetings between particular people can have a meaning, or significance, way beyond what we might expect. And that some kind of group communion is going on within populations. — Punshhh

This is analogous to the above referenced "butterfly effect" itself. However, there is a very big difference. Understanding of the butterfly effect is based in principles of chance, randomness, described by chaos theory. This theory demonstrates how the concept of "amplified possibility" is permissible in a deterministic world, if we allow that at a fundamental level, chance occurrence is real. The chance occurrence must be very real, for chaos theory to be real, so in reality chaos theory is a denial of the "deterministic world". People will claim that chaos theory is consistent with determinism, but it is not, because it requires chance, undetermined actions, at the basic level.

What you are indicating is that these supposedly "chance" occurrences, which form the base of chaos theory, actually have meaning and significance which extends far beyond the capacity of the conscious human mind to understand. This implies that within the "non-conscious relation between all the different parts", there is some form of what you call "group communion", which is some form of recognition of the underlying meaning or significance, and this acts to cause the amplification of possibility which is required for the individuals to act together as a whole, in a way which is non-deterministic.

Possibility extends through such a vast array of features of a vast array of activities, far beyond the capacity of the most imaginative minds.

Yes, although, I am focussing on the personal angle of a being. Which is actually quite limited, on a small scale and only covering a small number of events, outcomes etc. This does require the vast majority of what happens external to the being to be ignored, or screened out*. For such a being, the experience of such an unusual event is very rare, perhaps once in the lifetime, or only for 1 in 10 people in their lifetime. What I’m saying, is that infact it happens more than we know, even regularly, but we either don’t see it, couldn’t appreciate the relevance, are conditioned to screen it out etc. essentially we are blind to it, except in certain very narrow circumstances determined by our life, heritage and conditioning.
For the mystic, or seer, this is fertile ground for exploration and contemplation.

This "coincidence" acts to "amplify possibility". When the whole, as a group, does something unexpected, the effect of amplified possibility is realized. We observe this, "the effects of amplified possibility" every time a being makes an act which we designate as freely chosen.

Yes, that makes sense, specifically to my second point. But when it comes to my third point, I am talking about something else. That there is some transcendent (perhaps) process, or cause which may involve far reaching karmic**significance. For example, two beings who have some connection from a previous life. Or some extended interaction between historical groups etc. in which the two people involved are emissaries, or representatives to some other unknown process, or meeting.

This implies that within the "non-conscious relation between all the different parts", there is some form of what you call "group communion", which is some form of recognition of the underlying meaning or significance, and this acts to cause the amplification of possibility which is required for the individuals to act together as a whole, in a way which is non-deterministic.

Yes, I’m with you about it not being deterministic. I go back to my emissary analogy, in each event, each being may act as an emissary, or ambassador for a whole species, or series of unconnected(seemingly) events. Also, there is an internal dimension within the physical body of the beings (we are after all a colony of millions of individual cells), a spiritual dimension and a cosmic dimension, to this.***

* we have evolved to do this, in a profound sense, through necessity.
**I am using the word karmic, descriptively, not necessarily in its precise meaning.
***I would refer you to Hindu mythology, in which there is a vast, infinite spiritual cosmos, of which we are in a small pond in a distant backwater.

For such a being, the experience of such an unusual event is very rare, perhaps once in the lifetime, or only for 1 in 10 people in their lifetime. What I’m saying, is that infact it happens more than we know, even regularly, but we either don’t see it, couldn’t appreciate the relevance, are conditioned to screen it out etc. essentially we are blind to it, except in certain very narrow circumstances determined by our life, heritage and conditioning.
For the mystic, or seer, this is fertile ground for exploration and contemplation. — Punshhh

I opt for "regularly". I tend to think that this sort of thing happens all the time, and it is a significant aspect of existence, but since it doesn't make sense to our deterministic way of understanding things, we have been conditioned to tune it out.

Here's an analogy, or another example of the "tuning out". There is talk and speculation about people who experience an "inner voice". Many people do not experience the inner voice. Those who do experience it, generally condition themselves to believe that the inner voice is simply a personal dialogue, talking to oneself. The self-conditioning occurs at such a young age we do not even remember it. It could be very confusing to think that I am talking to someone other than myself, internally, so I carry on a self-dialogue which effectively blocks out, tunes out, any external source from my inner voice. Talking to myself, internally allows me to block out any internal voice which is not my own, convincing me that the internal voice is simply my own. Any external sourced voice, in the internal, is pushed under the rug, and drowned out, therefore not noticed.

However, some do not succumb to the conditioning, and end up believing that the voice of another is speaking to them internally. These people are designated as psychologically challenged. That designation doesn't make the phenomenon go away, or make it any less real. So this feature, of having someone who is somehow not you (external in that sense), speaking to you internally, is very real, despite the fact that normal people shout at themselves internally to drown out or tune out, the "not you" aspect, and think of this as thinking.

Shhhhh, you might want to keep quiet about hearing voices and talking to yourself around here they might think you’re away with the fairies (just joking).

Yes, I agree with you entirely. Indeed one of the stages, initiations, or crises that I talk about is reaching an accommodation, an understanding with the internal dialogue. To develop a trust and rapport and develop the ability to work with, to bounce ideas off the voice. At a later stage, one might develop the faculty to hear the divine voice. Something, which I think is achieved by prayer in monastic settings. For me it is rather like a radio receiver.

So let's say that we do have a radio receiver of that sort, and it's common to us all but the majority of people, (the normal people), condition themselves to tune it out, or maybe even turn it right off. I don't consider myself to be normal, so I am cognizant of that signal as I explained, but I also understand that I've spent most my life under the 'tune it out' program of conditioning. I didn't succeed in completely tuning it out, or turning it off, because it was too strong for my conscious mind to overpower. Now it really confuses me, even causing unnecessary stress and anxiety, because I don't know how to interpret or translate the meaning, having never taken the time to learn the language, yet it is so strong and seems to tell me that I ought to try.

If I want to try and understand it, what do you think would be my best approach? Should I first attempt to determine where it's coming from, and then after forming that understanding I would have an approach toward trying to understand what it is saying? Or, do you think that I should first learn to understand what it is saying, then, where it is coming from might sort of reveal itself naturally?

First thing first though, how can I know that it is really being received, and not just created by me as a form of self-deception? That's what I'm really afraid of, that it's a sort of self-perpetuating anxiety, like I am creating a problem for myself, and actively propagating the problem. The 'tune it out conditioning' tells me it is self-created deception and that's why it must be shut off. How can I convince myself of its reality, so that I can peacefully live with it, and so it resolves that anxiety of self-deception, rather than creating it? Is there a logical trick, like even if it is self-created, it must have a cause?

Yes, there is a logical trick and various techniques. Were you involved in the New Age movement at all? Because these techniques would have been available then. I can’t offer much help, from here, because normally I would advise someone to undergo a programme of self development for a few years first. This is important because it would bring to the surface any psychological issues, or trauma which would be problematic at a later stage, or might make one unsuitable for such practice. Due to the risk of psychosis, or other mental health problems.
You’re in Australia right? I would have a chat with Tom Storm, he might be able to refer you to someone who can help.

I can give you a simplified overall description of what is involved, but as I say, it needs to be undergone with, or adjacent to a group who are able to assess and assist in the process.

I spent a decade of rigorous self development before I was in a position to develop what I am talking about.

So basically, you come to an accommodation with yourself, once this is established and settled, with no conflict, or any issues. Then you establish a dialogue with the voice, or alter ego*. You come to terms where you have an established and shared common interest which is directed at the purification and development of your being. Because there is a strong common interest there is no, opportunity, or room for mischief. I say this because we are here dealing with the ego and the subconscious and if there are any internal conflicts, unreleased trauma, then it can derail the process and progress cannot be made.

The next stage involves reaching an understanding and trust with the voice/alter ego, to become good friends so to speak. To develop a working relationship. This goes hand in hand with a spiritual path in which one is seeking to reach a common understanding with the soul(or equivalent) and become aligned with one’s divine presence**.

Once this is established, one then proceeds to divine (as in divination), or using intuition the ways in which the divinity is infusing into the being. To practice a good life and role in a community, or family.

Over time this develops and reaches a point where there is a divine, or spiritual voice, or presence. Something which is acted out in small acts of kindness with other members of the community and or family. At this point, one would have developed a strong sense of humility and peace in living a relatively simple life engaging in pastimes like gardening, painting, literature or the like. Or discussing these ideas on a friendly forum, for example.

*working with the ego is a whole subject in itself and is the subject and goal of self development practices.

**alignment with one’s divine presence is simply the process practiced in all religions and spiritual schools of becoming one with one’s higher self, soul, becoming close to Jesus etc. There is a whole spiritual philosophy around this with more advanced stages and practices, where one allows the soul to play a guiding role and one and one’s soul (or equivalent) become assimilated in one being, or person.

For example; I have come to realise that extremely inprobable events and coincidences happen all the time. — Punshhh

The story of Jung and the scarab beetle is one of the most famous examples he used to illustrate his concept of synchronicity.

Once Carl Jung was treating a young woman who was a very difficult patient. She was highly educated and deeply rational, so much so that she had "sealed herself" off from emotional or psychological progress. Jung felt he was at an impasse with her, as she was resistant to his therapeutic attempts to get her to a "more human understanding." He hoped that something "unexpected and irrational" would happen to break through her intellectual defenses.

One day, she was in his office telling him about a dream she had the previous night. In the dream, she was given a piece of jewelry in the shape of a golden scarab beetle. As she was recounting this dream, Jung heard a gentle tapping sound on the window behind him. He turned around and saw a large flying insect tapping against the pane, seemingly trying to get into the dark room.

Jung opened the window and caught the insect as it flew in. He was astonished to discover that it was a scarabaeid beetle, a common rose-chafer, whose golden-green color was the closest thing in that region to a "golden scarab."

Jung handed the beetle to his patient and said, "Here is your scarab."

The event had a profound effect on the woman. Her rigid, rational worldview was shattered by the coincidence of her dream and the appearance of the real beetle. Jung noted that this "broke the ice of her intellectual resistance," and the treatment was able to proceed with satisfactory results.

Yes, there is a lot going on there.
I could tell you a story or two about such things. Like when I was half way through writing the word, evil, when a large spider ran onto the back of my right hand, the hand I was writing with.
Also the idea of a world view being shattered is in the area I am referring to.