In general the question is the justification of political violence: whether we choose the ballot or the bullet as a political and ethical question, and the various justifications about that. — Moliere

When rule of law doesn't function and democracy is being manipulated... what purpose does the ballot have?

The fact is that almost everyone speaks out in horror against this assassination, but I would argue that there are far more people than people think who behind those words have no problem with it happening.

This is how polarized things have become. In which people play some charade of thoughts and prayers, but view each other as mortal enemies.

So when does this "cold war" become an actual war? When does it become something in which people openly accept themselves to be on a side that shoots the other, rather than playing the charade?

Is the current situation in the US, and even globally, between the far right and most people left of that far right... enough of a divide to spark warranted violence to balance things back from that extreme?

If the political extreme is whatever sparks consequences of death for people in a society, be that direct or indirect (suicides or being left to die), is it warranted to violently fight back at the extreme that caused it? If society can't use rule of law and democratic methods to fight that extreme and that extreme worms its way into actual government... does that warrant revolutionary violence against this status quo?

In hindsight we look back at regimes and wonder why no one fought back before it became this regime. But I would argue that the time before those regimes look almost exactly as how it is now. We can't know if the US marches towards an authoritarian regime before it actually happens.

So is this a time that we in the future will look back on and wonder... why didn't anyone do anything before it was too late?

Will the assassin who tried to kill Trump be viewed as a hero who failed if we end up in a dictatorship under Trump? Like operation Valkyrie?

To define what warrants political violence as being good demands perfect knowledge of the future. Maybe many previous successful assassinations actually prevented something we didn't know would happen, no one knows.

It's why I think The Dead Zone is a really good philosophical experiment for this topic.

If we can only say it in retrospect -- i.e. the Nazis -- then that's not exactly a guide to when and why. — Moliere

Why? If we’re assess that a person, a movement, a cult, a government, etc., will cause great destruction / murder / suffering in the future. No one has a crystal ball, but there is good evidence.

As to when— once certain lines are crossed. I think the Trump administration has pretty much crossed those lines, but I look for the ignoring of court holdings — provided the Supreme Court’s Trump-appointed members don’t continually rubber stamp his blatantly illegal moves. Once that happens, the military will have to make a choice whether to uphold Trump or the constitution. If they choose Trump, then the only recourse is states leaving the union and people fighting back if the army tries to stop it.

But that’s me.

Most of what you said is screamingly obvious.

The absurd situation is when the screamingly obvious doesn't even register -- what had been bad or good or indifferent isn't even named or thought about.

For myself, at least, when I reflect from a position that wants pacifism I end up here: So the world hates this idea because it's(EDIT: "violence is") justified sometimes.

How and when? It feels so absurd.

When rule of law doesn't function and democracy is being manipulated... what purpose does the ballot have? — Christoffer

Not the one I'd like.

It's why I think The Dead Zone is a really good philosophical experiment for this topic. — Christoffer

I agree that hits the topic.

I'm still thinking through and so didn't address your thoughts in between, but wanted to say something.

Once that happens, the military will have to make a choice whether to uphold Trump or the constitution. If they choose Trump, then the only recourse is states leaving the union and people fighting back if the army tries to stop it. — Mikie

The military is very Republican, and basically is into war. So that doesn't give me high hopes, but is realistic.

My coworkers wanted to vote on what food to order, and I was like, I'm not a slave, damn you! They totally got my point.

You need another’s vote to decide what food to order? No wonder.

It’s a stupid analogy because in that case you’re not operating under the illusion that you’re participating in government, that a government job-holder can represent you and your interests while deciding the conditions of your life, and that you have some sort of say in power. The whole process is at best performative piffle for thralls, at worst, the signing over of yourself as property.

The fact is that almost everyone speaks out in horror against this assassination, but I would argue that there are far more people than people think who behind those words have no problem with it happening. — Christoffer

Oh, I'm unfortunately aware of such sentiments.

It's not just one person, let's say.

This is how polarized things have become. In which people play some charade of thoughts and prayers, but view each other as mortal enemies.

So when does this "cold war" become an actual war? When does it become something in which people openly accept themselves to be on a side that shoots the other, rather than playing the charade?

Is the current situation in the US, and even globally, between the far right and most people left of that far right... enough of a divide to spark warranted violence to balance things back from that extreme?

Good question.

I want to focus on this notion of "balance", in particular, because that seems to be a concept in play in these discussions -- if we could trust one another well enough that what the other does, even if I wouldn't do it, then "balance" is at least adjacent to a good goal.

But we don't live in a time where "balance" is possible.

I don't know if the violence is warranted. That's the question, in the face of the absurd world we live in.

If the political extreme is whatever sparks consequences of death for people in a society, be that direct or indirect (suicides or being left to die), is it warranted to violently fight back at the extreme that caused it? If society can't use rule of law and democratic methods to fight that extreme and that extreme worms its way into actual government... does that warrant revolutionary violence against this status quo?

In hindsight we look back at regimes and wonder why no one fought back before it became this regime. But I would argue that the time before those regimes look almost exactly as how it is now. We can't know if the US marches towards an authoritarian regime before it actually happens.

So is this a time that we in the future will look back on and wonder... why didn't anyone do anything before it was too late?

Will the assassin who tried to kill Trump be viewed as a hero who failed if we end up in a dictatorship under Trump? Like operation Valkyrie?

That's similar to the reflection I'm having.

To define what warrants political violence as being good demands perfect knowledge of the future. Maybe many previous successful assassinations actually prevented something we didn't know would happen, no one knows.

If so then we never have warrant for political violence, since no one has perfect knowledge of the future.

The wilderness awaits you, Buck. Flee.

Could the analogy be to a prohibition era bootlegger who goes around touting the benefits of alcohol, says a certain number of alcohol-related deaths are "worth it" so we can freely drink, and then gets nailed by a drunk driver? — RogueAI

That would be an analogy of the irony of a gun guy getting shot, sure.

So you are arguing or asking if the assassination of Charlie Kirk was justified?
Youre a mod?
Thats pretty fucked up. — DingoJones

It is, yep.

Charlie Kirk didn't deserve what happened to him in the sense that all he did made him worthy of punishment: But... — Moliere

That's the whole schtick, ": But." The 'but' is the whole point here, and the colon is apt. The rest is just the necessary window dressing needed to get to the 'but'. The caveat on not deserving murder is also pretty wild.

"Fucked up" is the correct description here.

I would say the irony is more that the right to bear arms only secures liberty if those bearing arms are (at least somewhat) virtuous and capable of self-governance (collectively and individually). Even if one grants it great importance, it still seems that it will be, at best, a right oriented towards a secondary good.

With "the ballot" the same issue occurs as with "the bullet." Simply having elections does not produce good governance nor "progress," nor justice, nor liberty. There are plenty of examples of extremely dysfunctional nations that nonetheless host relatively free and fair elections. There are important prerequisites for self-determination; many I'd argue are more important than democracy (and indeed, they can be eroded by democracy or liberalism/consumerism in some cases). Republican government might crown the achievement of self-governance, and it might even be a means towards it (although by no means a foolproof one), since it creates a system where poor leadership is punished (of course, in dysfunctional democracies, good leadership is often punished and demagoguery rewarded). But people who cannot govern themselves as individuals can hardly be expected to collectively each other. It's the same way worker's collectives could create great workplaces, but often didn't.

Too often I think we tend to think of democracy as a good in itself. Perhaps it is, or at least can be. It can lead to people taking a strong ownership over the common good. It hardly seems to today though. Likewise with the right to bear arms. But it seems obvious that places like the Republic of Korea and Singapore have provided for not only a better life, but even a better commonwealth and form of citizenship without full democracy than places like Afghanistan and Iraq had despite having free and fair elections. So too, there are plenty of places that are awash with weapons with little by way of liberty or a common wealth; the Central African Republic is a fine example.

That's the whole schtick, ": But." The 'but' is the whole point here, and the colon is apt. The rest is just the necessary window dressing needed to get to the 'but'. The caveat on not deserving murder is also pretty wild.

"Fucked up" is the correct description here. — Leontiskos

I hope you've seen I've said as much.

You're right that ": But" is the whole schtick -- that's the question I'm posing.

When is the schtick justified, if ever?

That we live in a fucked up world is part of my lament here.

Yeah, and can you force people to behave? Without violent indoctrination? Without capital punishment and constant fear of death? No, you cannot. — Outlander

A depressing--and not at all realistic--response.

A "conscientious cooperative civil society" isn't forced -- it is reared from childhood. You have to teach children -- who become adults -- how to behave.

Does this result in perfect compliance with the law under any and all circumstances? Does this absolutely prevent violence under any and all circumstances? No. What it does is result in a LOW level of unlawful and violent behavior.

Do such societies exist? Certainly they do. Most of us live within such societies.

Many of us also live within societies which are fraying, owing to excesses of free enterprise in such businesses as gun manufacture, gambling, illicit drug use, and the like.

With "the ballot" the same issue occurs as with "the bullet." Simply having elections does not produce good governance nor "progress," nor justice, nor liberty. There are plenty of examples of extremely dysfunctional nations that nonetheless host relatively free and fair elections. There are important prerequisites for self-determination; many I'd argue are more important than democracy (and indeed, they can be eroded by democracy or liberalism/consumerism in some cases). Republican government might crown the achievement of self-governance, and it might even be a means towards it (although by no means a foolproof one), since it creates a system where poor leadership is punished (of course, in dysfunctional democracies, good leadership is often punished and demagoguery rewarded). But people who cannot govern themselves as individuals can hardly be expected to collectively each other. It's the same way worker's collectives could create great workplaces, but often didn't. — Count Timothy von Icarus

If "the ballot" and "the bullet" are the same then it shouldn't matter which anyone chooses -- it's the results that matter.

I don't think you believe this at all I'm more asking you to clarify that assertion.

Too often I think we tend to think of democracy as a good in itself. Perhaps it is, or at least can be. It can lead to people taking a strong ownership over the common good. It hardly seems to today though. Likewise with the right to bear arms. But it seems obvious that places like the Republic of Korea and Singapore have provided for not only a better life, but even a better commonwealth and form of citizenship without full democracy than places like Afghanistan and Iraq had despite having free and fair elections. So too, there are plenty of places that are awash with weapons with little by way of liberty or a common wealth; the Central African Republic is a fine example. — Count Timothy von Icarus

I am a skeptic of liberal democracy in the sense usually meant: A representative government with a division of powers and rules which define when and who gets to be the decider, and various rights to property.

Not that I wanted to be, but *gestures at the world*

But I don't think we're democratic exactly -- so while we're responsible for our government's actions we're also not in charge of what they do, no matter how hard you try.

I suppose I'd believe democracy doesn't work once I see it in action. At least a little bit more than a first-past-the-post representative government with an electoral college wherein money is what heavily determines who gets to be the decider, wherein the parties draw their own districts, and wherein the intelligence agencies of the government infiltrate social movements in order to disrupt them so that we remain the same.

In such a world I don't want to set up heroes and anti-heroes. That'd lead to even more death -- as much of a cynic as I am I do think all life is important, even Mr Kirk's. — Moliere

Conflict here being: I admire John Brown, Eugene Debs, and various others who are heroes to my mind: I thought of these two because one did it with the bullet and the other did it with the ballot.

For myself, at least, when I reflect from a position that wants pacifism I end up here: So the world hates this idea because it's (EDIT: "violence is") justified sometimes. — Moliere

The OP would not be at all provocative if it were presented this abstractly, simply asking the question of when violence is permitted and when it is not. The OP, however, presented the question of whether the assassination of Charlie Kirk was justified under the logic employed during the Civil Rights Movement, suggesting that the plight of today’s left is much like the plight of African Americans in the 1960s, and so now is the time to take up arms.

One must wonder if anyone so repulsed by Charlie Kirk actually watched his videos. He was a Christian conservative to be sure, but not a firebrand. His shtick was to debate college students who would approach the mic.

One must also wonder if anyone who finds consistency between Kirk’s assassin and Malcolm X has actually read Malcolm X.

The comment, for example, by Malcolm X: “If they don’t want you and me to get violent, then stop the racists from being violent. Don’t teach us nonviolence while those crackers are violent. Those days are over” is an appeal to self-defense, alluding to instances where MLK’s strategy of nonviolence is suicidal. It is, of course, philosophically reasonable to want to parse out those moments when the violence against someone is great enough to justify lashing out with additional violence, but not by citing an instance that is nowhere near a close call.

If you actually think it’s a hard one to noodle through whether someone who holds political views on abortion, homosexuality, transsexualism, guns, and the climate should be executed by a rifle in a public arena at the will of any random citizen, then this is not a conversation about pacifism versus violence generally. It is a conversation with someone who doesn’t know basic right from wrong.

The OP would not be at all provocative if it were presented this abstractly, simply asking the question of when violence is permitted and when it is not. The OP, however, presented the question of whether the assassination of Charlie Kirk was justified under the logic employed during the Civil Rights Movement, suggesting that the plight of today’s left is much like the plight of African Americans in the 1960s, and so now is the time to take up arms. — Hanover

Yes.

What else is there?

The comment, for example, by Malcolm X: “If they don’t want you and me to get violent, then stop the racists from being violent. Don’t teach us nonviolence while those crackers are violent. Those days are over” is an appeal to self-defense, alluding to instances where MLK’s strategy of nonviolence is suicidal. It is, of course, philosophically reasonable to want to parse out those moments when the violence against someone is great enough to justify lashing out with additional violence, but not by citing an instance that is nowhere near a close call.

If you actually think it’s a hard one to noodle through whether someone who holds political views on abortion, homosexuality, transsexualism, guns, and the climate should be executed by a rifle in a public arena at the will of any random citizen, then this is not a conversation about pacifism versus violence generally. It is a conversation with someone who doesn’t know basic right from wrong. — Hanover

I said it's murder.

I'm suggesting that this isn't the only murder we're responsible for -- so pacifism becomes an absurd dream.

Yes, I don't know basic right from wrong -- how could we in this world? Who does?

The question between pacifism and violence is easy to answer at its ideals: Pacifists don't do that on principle.

They, more often than not, suffer for these beliefs and move on with their lives when they can -- but also get eaten up by the harsher people amongst us, and forgotten.

Mr Kirk held views -- he held views that are against the gays, for instance, and expressing them kind of views has effects.

He's not a peaceful individual sitting at a college campus just having a conversation -- he's a professional propagandist spreading hate for the FREAKS.

Insofar that anyone is against THE FREAKS then it's really just an existential question for me: Do I want to live or not?

In spite of everything I do.

Mourning the haters of FREAKS wanting a Christian nation is hard to do. I'm willing to go so far as saying killing is evil.

But that's kind of the thing: We are killers, like it or not. We have more kills on our hands than the 1 guy shot yesterday.

So do we apply that same ire and disappointment to ourselves?

Unfortunately, this isn't even registered -- it's not good, bad, indifferent -- it's something so far beyond the subject that it's meaningless fluff.

If you actually think it’s a hard one to noodle through whether someone who holds political views on abortion, homosexuality, transsexualism, guns, and the climate should be executed by a rifle in a public arena at the will of any random citizen, then this is not a conversation about pacifism versus violence generally. — Hanover

Though the way you put it here -- sure.

I'm hoping that I've made my point clear enough that I'm not advocating for "any public speaker with such and such a view is good to be shot by any random citizen because of their views"

I'd much rather not live in a world like that.

I have a hard time caring, however, in the face of our genocide.

Whether it's the left or not for people dealing with the war against Gaza it seems to me that the bullet is justified. No politician wants to step up to stop supplying arms, and many people against what's happening in Gaza are "right wing", but not fascist.

But the story of the day is this -- so... if you care about Gaza, the ballot or the bullet?

I, myself, would like our states to represent us, but they don't.

No taxation without....

The comment, for example, by Malcolm X: “If they don’t want you and me to get violent, then stop the racists from being violent. Don’t teach us nonviolence while those crackers are violent. Those days are over” is an appeal to self-defense, alluding to instances where MLK’s strategy of nonviolence is suicidal. It is, of course, philosophically reasonable to want to parse out those moments when the violence against someone is great enough to justify lashing out with additional violence, but not by citing an instance that is nowhere near a close call. — Hanover

I agree it's not a close call. It's the first person I thought of in the moment that has a coherent philosophy of political violence.

Do you wonder if I've read him, for reals?

I have, but I'm not going to claim expertise. I have admiration for his moral convictions that he followed through on, and even revised.

The Malcolm X speech reminds me of the Introduction to John Keegan's A History of Warfare where Keegan criticizes the Clausewitz idea that war is politics by other means. Keegan strives to understand war-making as a culture of different people and not as a natural extension of pursuing political goals. War often interrupts politics.

A ready example of this is when John Brown tried to start a war at Harper's Ferry. It was not as simple a beginning that he had hoped for, but it was a start he hoped to bring about.

The case of Booth shooting Lincoln was in hopes of keeping a war alive. The original plot was to kill all of the leaders of Lincoln's administration.

The civil rights era had intimations of war but also an appeal to avoid it. Otherwise, it would have all been straight up Lenin and vanguard of the proletariat.

The Hatch decision titrated the Second Amendment into an individual right. That is different from the original idea of avoiding standing armies. Or even armies that rake.

All the political shootings of late, whoever they target from the menu of partisan targets, are more like personal messages than a call to arms. The Kirk killing is yet another school shooting. Is that a "cultural war?" Is it not a "cultural war?" Keegan readers would like to know.

I'm sure you're most likely right, Hanover. This is an odd event for me to process is all, when upset or bewildered, I enjoy engaging in debate with people I respect. As an "amateur" web programmer, my mind is basically solidified at this point to automatically seeing the "unlikely" options, as far as it relates to possibility (and therefore, relevant issues as they relate to security within a given system or framework). Old habits die hard, I guess.

Hopefully I did not upset you with any perceived vapidness of insinuation. I appreciate the reply.

That's the whole schtick, ": But." The 'but' is the whole point here, and the colon is apt. The rest is just the necessary window dressing needed to get to the 'but'. The caveat on not deserving murder is also pretty wild.

"Fucked up" is the correct description here. — Leontiskos

You ever see the second Die Hard movie? Bruce Willis has to wear a sandwich board saying "I hate n******" in a predominately black neighborhood or a bomb goes off. So let's say some racist jerk decides to do that and walk around a predominately black neighborhood and someone shoots him dead. Are you really going to object if someone says, "Yeah, it's fucked up that he got shot...BUT". Isn't someone who does that and gets killed get put in the category of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes"? Or "fuck around and find out"?

Charlie Kirk, to me, was the equivalent of the guy walking around with the "I hate *******" sandwich board. Yeah, it's sad he got killed, but...karma's a bitch. The universe has a sense of irony.

Charlie Kirk, to me, was the equivalent of the guy walking around with the "I hate *******" sandwich board. — RogueAI

What did he say about black people or "predominately black neighborhoods?" Again, I never heard of the guy until just yesterday, so. Just curious as to what information or knowledge you have that makes that analogy valid in your mind.

https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/tpusas-charlie-kirk-trans-people

I mean, there are no trans animals in nature. People are awful, I agree. They bully people who are smaller than them to believe anything they want. That's a tragedy, sure. But aside from the 0.00001 people who are born biologically of the same sex (both organs or both chromosomes), I don't get it. It's just larger or ruder people bullying and mentally damaging people into thinking they're "beneath" them or "freaks". The people who do that, who harm their fellow man to such a degree of permanence, should not be alive, yes, I agree with that. But you don't let them get away with their crimes by accepting fallen or warped mental states as "valid". That's what they want. That's how they win. You're being their slave right now. Stop or be stopped.

Also, that has nothing to do with black people. Like I specifically requested information on.

I don't know if he was racist, but his transphobia, imo, was just as bad.

It is obviously an atrocity of the first order. Ezra Klein, a liberal columnist at the NY Times, pointed out that Kirk, with whom he would disagree about almost everything, was practicing real political debate: going out into college campuses all over the US and taking on all comers. His was a model of civil discourse.

Except for one thing.

I can't reconcile how this purportedly fine upstanding citizen could go into bat for the candidate that denied, and tried to subvert, the 2020 election, including whipping up a mob who ransacked the US Capitol Building, and was caught on tape discussing how to fake an election win with fake electors. I don't understand the depth of delusion that allows these apparently earnest and educated activists to pretend that the current President is anything other than an authoritarian egotist who poses a mortal threat to the American body politic. Of course, this kind of political violence, and gun violence generally, is a mortal threat to public order. But then, so is the current President, who appealed for an end to this 'divisive hate speech which is tearing us apart' and then added, 'which is only ever practiced by radical left lunatics.'

//end rant//

Oh, except for to say, I dearly hope if they do catch the perpertrator, that he is captured alive. There are many questions that will need answering.

I don't know if he was racist, but his transphobia, imo, was just as bad. — RogueAI

So you just say things for no reason then. Why bring up the plight of people mistreated and killed for a physical quality they were born with no control over, then?

You can't compare the plight of people treated differently by the color of their skin in which they had no choice or control over to those who (were forced to) decide(d) they are different by the choices and mechanisms of their own mind brought about by others and factors that were only determined after their birth and developmental process. That's literally the definition of genocide. You are complicit to genocide. Unknowingly perhaps. But complicit all the same. The fact they-- I'll pause it here I have to respond to the above post. Come back to me with later.

I can't reconcile how this purportedly fine upstanding citizen could go into bat for the candidate that denied, and tried to subvert, the 2020 election, including whipping up a mob who ransacked the US Capitol Building, and being caught on tape discussing how to fake an election win with fake electors. I don't understand the depth of delusion that allows these apparently earnest and educated activists to pretend that the current President is anything other than an authoritarian egotist who poses a mortal threat to the American body politic. — Wayfarer

You can't reconcile how people can be people? The very worst of what life is when given the chance? Surely you're not that naive. I've said this many a time to many a people, mostly those in power, but now to you: "The only different between the lowliest kindest person and the most cruel dictator are two simple things we all possess or otherwise have access to: Opprotnity. And time." Deep down, you know, not me, forget me, I'm not part of this equation, but Truth and Reality remain Truth and Reality.

Oh, except for to say, I dearly hope if they do catch the perpertrator, that he is captured alive. There are many questions that will need answering. — Wayfarer

No there's not. The average man cannot comprehend all that surrounds him. He gets frustrated at traffic even though it's sign of his own, not only economic wellness, but progress as a species. People in general are not very smart. They do terrible things without realizing they are terrible. Until you realize this, you will live a life unpleasant, and so, naturally only contribute to said unpleasantness.

We should all have moved on by now. Kids are shot every day — kids who didn’t contribute to ensuring this happens for decades to come with their spewing of gun manufacturer propaganda, like this guy did.

More media hysteria.

It is obviously an atrocity of the first order. Ezra Klein, a liberal columnist at the NY Times, pointed out that Kirk, with whom he would disagree about almost everything, was practicing real political debate: going out into college campuses all over the US and taking on all comers. His was a model of civil discourse.

Except for one thing.

I can't reconcile how this purportedly fine upstanding citizen could go into bat for the candidate that denied, and tried to subvert, the 2020 election, including whipping up a mob who ransacked the US Capitol Building, and was caught on tape discussing how to fake an election win with fake electors. I don't understand the depth of delusion that allows these apparently earnest and educated activists to pretend that the current President is anything other than an authoritarian egotist who poses a mortal threat to the American body politic. Of course, this kind of political violence, and gun violence generally, is a mortal threat to public order. But then, so is the current President, who appealed for an end to this 'divisive hate speech which is tearing us apart' and then added, 'which is only ever practiced by radical left lunatics.' — Wayfarer

The problem with the reactions right now is that people whitewash Kirk's behavior and what he has actually said over the years. Even his most vocal critics plays a part in creating this martyr of him.

It's the usual way of people totally unable to keep two truths in their heads at the same time. That an assassination is awful, but so was Kirk.

He spread some rather extreme views, called out for deaths of people, wanted to pardon Pelosi's attacker. There's no denying that someone spreading such hate opened up to the risk of being hated back, to the point of violence.

I mean, there are no trans animals in nature. — Outlander

You need animals to dress up to show it? This is unfortunately part of the public lack of knowledge in the area of transexuality. As Sapolsky says in this video, we viewed homosexuality as a psychopathology and then discovered, no, it's not. And here we go again in history, viewing transexuals in the same way society viewed homosexuals before society matured into actual knowledge (well, the intelligent ones in society anyway)



So, what Kirk and people like him spewed out is pure transphobia. It's exactly the same as when society had widespread, "state-supported" homophobia and it leading to suicides, stigma and extreme suffering for homosexuals just wanting to live in peace and be respected as any other person.

And as I'm usually arguing, society never cares for the indirect suffering caused by a shifting attitude in society because of a high tolerance for hate speech and phobic bullshit spreading around.

We're living through the same maturing society towards transexuals as society went through in the 80-90s for homosexuals. In the end, we will have lots of people who once spewed transphobic hate in public, to be viewed by history as awful.

Who wants to be considered equal to the homophobic haters in the 80s who were part of the crowd who made life a living hell for homosexuals back then? Anyone?

The reason for homophobia and transphobia is because people are drawn to it to feel safe. They feel safe having a group in society they can blame for anything. Who becomes an enemy that are responsible for any troubles they have. It's the behavior of the actual weak and pathetic, who make zero contribution to society which improves the life and safety for all.

Society doesn't get more tolerable and good by allowing such hate to be spread. The free speech argument by the right wing magas who usually spews out this transphobia is not in favor of free speech itself, it's a blanket defense for them to be able to spread this hatred.

I want to focus on this notion of "balance", in particular, because that seems to be a concept in play in these discussions -- if we could trust one another well enough that what the other does, even if I wouldn't do it, then "balance" is at least adjacent to a good goal.

But we don't live in a time where "balance" is possible.

I don't know if the violence is warranted. That's the question, in the face of the absurd world we live in. — Moliere

I think balance is impossible as long as people view freedom of speech as some abstract axiom without any defining societal parameters.

As it is now, it is used by the hateful to legitimize hate speech. And as Popper's tolerance paradox describes, this practice slowly erodes society into becoming intolerant. This is exactly what we're seeing in the US. Freedom of speech used as blanket defense to spread intolerance.

And since this is what's going on, there's no way to balance because there are no tools to balance with. So we end up with measures that tries to balance things through violence instead; an escalation of the divide through a desperation to balance the scales.

If you spread intolerance hard and long enough, and if no one actually oppose and stops you, then you will eventually get a violent push back.

Think of it as a rubber band being stretched. If nothing stops you, no one blocks you from stretching it further, eventually it will snap back at you and hurt you.

I think Kirk is an example of how far society can push its intolerance before things start to snap. The people, especially those negatively affected by the hate of the intolerant, want actual pushback on the hate, but if the state and society at large instead stupport that hate, then you push these people into desperate measures.

Think of it this way, if you are a person who are in the crosshair of society's accepted hate. Spread by people like Kirk. And you plead for society to stop being like this and you just get more hate. Going on until there's a point where the state itself starts to implement policies that would classify you as sub-human, who want to deport you, even though you're not from anywhere else, who starts to limit your freedoms, who wants to put you in segregated areas away from other people, who want to chemically assault your existence with either taking away needed medicine or try to medicate your "problem" away... and this just keeps going and going and no one does a fucking thing to balance it back... when do you become the rubber band snapping back?

If we are to balance things in society, we need to first acknowledge hate speech for what it is; that it is a call for intolerance, a call for dividing society into accepted and not accepted people. If we accept it for what it is, then we understand that freedom of speech is not a valid defense for it because it's rather a call for destroying part of society, not improving it.

Freedom of speech could be considered true only for that which attempts to improve society. If banning trans, or other people in society is part of an argument for improving society, it needs to be backed up with actual evidence as it is an extreme claim. If such evidence does not support such claims, it can't be defended by freedom of speech and instead falls under hate speech, thereby becomes an attempt to destroy society and is thereby illegal.

If we actually apply the already existing laws on hate speech to actually function properly, Kirk would never have been able to continue saying what he was arguing for. He would have needed to change his debate tactics and rhetoric to be actually factual rather than performative propaganda. And he wouldn't have been the kind of target he became.

People like Kirk push the limits more and more because there's no one on the other side pushing back. There's no laws, or laws used, that prevent him from eroding tolerance in society.

And if you rally for intolerance, then you will rally those who are intolerant of yourself. Further, if people get hurt by your intolerance, then they will hurt you back.

So, a first step to balance things out is to actually apply hate speech laws as they're supposed to.

After that, block politicians who try to go into elections with hate speech as part of their strategy. If you want to protect democracy, don't let anti-democratic politicians into positions of power that lets them change laws. That should be fucking obvious really.

If so then we never have warrant for political violence, since no one has perfect knowledge of the future. — Moliere

What we do know is what leads society into anti-democratic, intolerant behaviors. And so if we are naive and stupid as a society to let the intolerant, racist, homophobic, transphobic, psychopathic, narcissistic, imperialistic authoritarian lunatics into a position to change laws... then we know where that leads. History have already showed us this and if we think that's not a problem for society and our democracy... then we are absolutely, fundamentally stupid. Because then the only way forward is violence, and we invited that in by being actively stupid or passively naive.