The "Golden Rule' sums it up. Although I think it would be better formulated as "Do unto others as they would want you to do unto them". Individual flourishing is important and so is community flourishing. If you flourish at the expense of others then you harm the flourishing of the community. — Janus
The end is survival and flourishing. — Janus
Yeah, I think this is right, despite the fact that we seem to be beating a dead horse. — Leontiskos
Indeed, it is impossible to exaggerate how many of the deeds of individual men and women can be traced back to the powerful and inextinguishable need of human beings to feel morally justified, to feel themselves to be “right with the world.” One would be right to expect that such a powerful need, nearly as powerful as the merely physical ones, would continue to find ways to manifest itself, even if it had to do so in odd and perverse ways.
It seems that a true philosopher should reject all physical and practical aspects, and focus solely on rational reasoning. — Astorre
However, where better than in harmony with nature to experience one's own physicality and connection to the world and others? — Astorre
but when it comes to liberalism - here the majority of the precondition - "liberalism is holy". — Astorre
For example, one might use bite-sized quotes from great thinkers to feel the immediate rush of sophistication without much care for what the quotes are really about. — GazingGecko
Irony and cynicism were just what the U.S. hypocrisy of the fifties and sixties called for. That’s what made the early postmodernists great artists. The great thing about irony is that it splits things apart, gets up above them so we can see the flaws and hypocrisies and duplicates. The virtuous always triumph? Ward Cleaver is the prototypical fifties father? "Sure." Sarcasm, parody, absurdism and irony are great ways to strip off stuff’s mask and show the unpleasant reality behind it. The problem is that once the rules of art are debunked, and once the unpleasant realities the irony diagnoses are revealed and diagnosed, "then" what do we do? Irony’s useful for debunking illusions, but most of the illusion-debunking in the U.S. has now been done and redone. Once everybody knows that equality of opportunity is bunk and Mike Brady’s bunk and Just Say No is bunk, now what do we do? All we seem to want to do is keep ridiculing the stuff. Postmodern irony and cynicism’s become an end in itself, a measure of hip sophistication and literary savvy. Few artists dare to try to talk about ways of working toward redeeming what’s wrong, because they’ll look sentimental and naive to all the weary ironists. Irony’s gone from liberating to enslaving. There’s some great essay somewhere that has a line about irony being the song of the prisoner who’s come to love his cage.
However, I'm not sure it is necessarily always bad to engage with wisdom porn. It might be a gateway to more genuine forms of engagement. One might learn important things as a side-effect. The question is, if one removed the immediate gratification, facing the difficulties of philosophy, would one still engage? — GazingGecko
I've read all of Fukuyama's books so I can say pretty safely that his only option is to justify his ideal case with an appeal to what "makes society work best," which will of course, in his terms, be an appeal to greater consumption, more safety, and the "reasonableness" of prioritizing epithumia. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Fukuyama's Identity argues that Rousseau was followed by Kant and Hegel in creating the modern concept of identity as universal human dignity, and as thus a fundamental social and political goal. So UN bill of rights encodes that telos.
Notion of dignity starts out with Socrates and Greeks treating it as the distinction due a selfless warrior - those who risk life for the group. It was the respect due to citizens who defended the larger democratic organism in a freely chosen way. Or at least fully committed way - the individual accepting the group telos and submerging his own telos.
Those who were ready to make sacrifice then became the nobles and aristocratic leaders of their own community in peace times. So merchants had low dignity. But romantic ideal became about everyone being citizens prepared to submit to the abstracted collective that stood apart from any individual - but then granted dignity to any individual who met its ideal.
Kant’s contribution was to turn the Christian social theory about the moral choice between good and evil into a secular abstract theory that reason itself guides good choices. Fukuyama suggests this arose as a contrast to Hobbe’s materialistic and biological view of man as a socialised animal. Kant said the better part of man was the capacity for detached and impersonal reason - not constrained by physics. Kant sharpened the idea that humans have a fundamental freedom to choose when it comes to morality, and this divides an individual from the world he inhabits in a way that demands dignity as a basic social fact.
Then Hegel’s Phenomenology of Spirit argues the warrior is in fact a slave in his selfless risk. Real dignity comes through the human labour that transforms the world into a place worth living. So master and slave come to recognise dignity in each other in sublated fashion.
Where Romanticism turned existential in searching inwards for the source of dignity, Hegel was saying the turn was outwards to the construction of the best political structure to express self-actualising humanity. Hegel was inspired by the young Napoleon pushing through his rational framework following the French Revolution and the 1806 battle of Jena.
So the ideal system was citizens recognised as moral agents, equal under law and capable of democratically sharing in society’s decisions. The set-up was that all individuals have absolute moral freedom, but guided by reason they would choose to do the right collective thing. Or rather, they would be able maximise their own goals within the framework of a global social goal. They would creatively and not slavishly lift up their worlds, in local-global systems fashion.
Using philosophy as a form of "wisdom porn" in this sense, people gratify themselves without investing the time and effort to deeply understand the content and its context. For example, one might use bite-sized quotes from great thinkers to feel the immediate rush of sophistication without much care for what the quotes are really about. — GazingGecko
The ideal situation is where both sides of the bargain feel the deal being struck is fair. A win-win. I get to do anything I can imagine wanting to do ... to the degree that I can also rely on everyone else being there to bail me out when I stuff up. And everyone else says I'm free to stuff up as much as I like, but there is a limit to the bail-out that the community is willing to provide. In the long run, my free action has to be judged as being a positive contribution to the community. — apokrisis
as a paradox to be reduced to its correct monistic answer — apokrisis
But then place that in a context where it is being shaped by a communal telos. One knows whether one is fitting in or striking out as the distinction becomes very clear in one’s mind. To compete or to cooperate becomes a choice one has to own and so a power to spend wisely. — apokrisis
Freedom is the power to act. Constraint is the collective rational good. — apokrisis
Fukuyama is good at giving a structuralist account of how every society in history has had a similar set of ingredients, but balanced somewhat differently due to historical and geographic circumstance. And through examining that evolutionary variety, a general systematic trend can be observed. — apokrisis
It's a dialectical synthesis, not a reduction. — Count Timothy von Icarus
It would be a strange answer to say that Socrates deserves to be killed because justice is just the will of the many, as expressed as a system of outputs, for instance. — Count Timothy von Icarus
First, how is this not a monadic view of freedom? — Count Timothy von Icarus
If such "freedom" isn't aimed at any prior end then it is sheer arbitrariness, but sheer arbitrariness is the opposite of freedom. The muscle spasms is not the paradigm of free action. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Yet the idea that choice is a limit on freedom is contradictory, hence freedom collapses into its opposite. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Hence, freedom as the self-determining capacity to actualize the good must already have an end or nature in view (although we haven't attained it at this stage). — Count Timothy von Icarus
But survival isn't the measure of virtue. A mountain may last aeons, but it isn't virtuous or self-determining, nor even much of a true whole. — Count Timothy von Icarus
The problem for Hegel though is that his providential teleology seems like wishful thinking. It's Hegel's naturalism and his desire to domesticate the divine by wrapping it in the immanence of history that leads to the good deflating into a monadic attractor. — Count Timothy von Icarus
He acknowledges they have strong points and then just defaults to "if you don't like liberalism you can leave," a funny comment from a defender of a globally hegemonic ideology that insists on inserting itself into every culture, by coercion or force if need be. — Count Timothy von Icarus
means of coping, maximizing productivity, reducing stress, or achieving “authenticity.” I have seen this particularly in some pieces on Stoicism I've read that seem to be largely aimed at the "tech-bro" crowd. A commitment to truth gets shoved aside for a view of philosophy as a sort of "life hack."
There is a sort of "managerial" outlook here, where praxis reduced to a sort of tool. In a similar vein, I have seen the critique that modern therapy/self-help largely focuses on helping us "get what we want," but not so much on "what we ought to do" or the question of if "what we want" is what will ultimately lead to flourishing and happiness. That is not seen as the purpose of therapy or self-help. That might be fair enough, but then it also not seen as the purpose of education either. So, what does fulfill that function? It seems to me that nothing does, except for perhaps wholly voluntary associations that one must "choose" (where such a choice is necessarily without much guidance). Aside from "self-development," this seems problematic for collective self-rule and social cohesion. — Count Timothy von Icarus
The society [die Gesellschaft] first educates the single being [das Einzelwesen], forms him into a half or full individual [Individuum]; it does NOT form itself from single beings, not from contracts of such beings! At most an individual is necessary as a central point [Kernpunkt] (a leader), and this individual is only "free" in relation to the lower or higher level of the others. So: the state [der Staat] does not originally suppress individuals: they do not yet exist! The state makes it possible for humans [Menschen] to exist in the first place, as herd animals [Heerdenthieren]. We are only then taught our drives and affects: they are not original [Ursprüngliches]! There is no "state of nature" [Naturzustand] for them! As parts of a whole, we participate in its living conditions [Existenzbedingungen] and its functions, and incorporate the experiences and judgments we have gained in the process.These later come into conflict [Kampf] and relationship [Relation] with one another when the bonds of the society disintegrate: within himself he must bear out [ausleiden] the after-effects of the social organism, he must atone [abbüßen] for the unsuitability of judgments, experiences, and living conditions that were suitable for a whole, and finally he comes to create his possibility of existence as an individual [Existenzmöglichkeit als Individuum] through reorganization and assimilation (excretion) of the drives within himself.
I am not sure if you're familiar with Byung Chul Han, but he makes a somewhat similar (although also in other ways quite different) — Count Timothy von Icarus
In the Agony of Eros, the main theme is about the loss of the Other, leading to everything becoming a form of consumption in "the Inferno of the Same." There is an excess of visibility, whereby everything is stripped bare and flattened into surfaces without depth. I cannot help but see some similarity between this and forms of "anti-metaphysics." — Count Timothy von Icarus
But I think this would also apply in some ways to the distanced, ironic approach to philosophy, as well. It's a way to engage that makes no claims on a person. This might be particularly true when it comes to engagement with those areas of philosophy that claim that praxis is essential, although I can see it applying more generally. The same might be said of the tendency to "retreat" into the analytic stance so as to ascend above good and evil.
That's difficult of course, because some would probably argue that ironic detachment is the height of wisdom. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Modern self-help products are a for-profit genre. So already from this perspective, what is being sold by the self-help genre has to be tailored in such a way that it will make it marketable, appealing to prospective consumers.Modern self-help culture, mindfulness programs, positive psychology, and to a lesser extent outdoor education, present themselves as the heirs of ancient, medieval, and Eastern wisdom traditions (i.e., to philosophy and spirituality). They borrow their vocabulary from these sources, speaking to "character development," virtue, flourishing, balance, discipline, detachment, etc., yet sever these practices from the original anthropology that supported them. In turn, the switch towards a "thin" anthropology, and the liberal phobia of strong ethical claims tends to unmoor them from any strong commitment to an ordering telos that structures the "self-development" they intend to promote. Everything becomes about the individual, about getting us what we want. — Count Timothy von Icarus
It's the only way that plebeians are able to conceive of philosophy. And plebeian mentality is the prevalent type of mentality nowadays, even in many people with advanced degrees and lots of money.A commitment to truth gets shoved aside for a view of philosophy as a sort of "life hack."
I think insufficiently so. In the past, philosophy typically used to be reserved for the leisurely elites who didn't have to worry about paying bills, so they were able to concern themselves with matters of truth in the abstract without this having adverse effects for them. I think it should be kept that way. Because people who have to work for a living, often to the point of exhaustion, simply cannot afford to invest in activities that could in any way hamper their ability to function in a brutally competitive market (such as by inducing self-criticism or self-doubt, as reading philosophy can easily do in people).Philosophy itself has been thoroughly academicatized and professionalized.
Hence to allure of koans. Thinking about a koan makes one's mind stop, which is oddly satisfying.Yet, while introspecting, I can certainly see the allure even in the analytic. Only focusing on a narrow problem inside a big problem, breaking it down into conditionals and treating important questions like sterile puzzles has a strange comfort. — GazingGecko
Of course, but actually going through with one's personal salvation project used to be reserved for the select few, certainly it wasn't meant for everyone.Modern self-help programs often seem to be excessively self-focused. But I would argue that the same is true of many traditional spiritual practices. What is it that motivates a search for "salvation" or "liberation" or "enlightenment" if not a concern for one's own well-being or life project? — Janus
One problem with that is that the watered down versions are being promoted as the real thing, and can eventually even replace it. This can lead to a lot of wasted time, wasted life opportunities, a lot of interpersonal strife.I think there is a puritanical elitist element in the idea that modern self-help programs are merely watered down caricatures of the ancient "true" practices.
I mean, if these programs really do help people to live better, more fulfilled and useful lives, then what is the problem?
These things become more relevant and glaring once you look at them in the context of the particular religion/spirituality where they take place.Is it because they don't really renounce this life in favour of gaining Karmic benefit or entrance to heaven? Is the most important thing we can do in this life to deny its value in favour of an afterlife, an afterlife which can never be known to be more than a conjecture at best, and a fantasy at worst? There seems to be a certain snobbishness, a certain classism, at play in these kinds of attitudes.
Of course. However, the striving for harmony usually involved a lot of torture and killing in the past, and still involves a lof of strife.There will always be a tension between individual preferences and societal desiderata. It seems obvious that in any community harmony is more desirable than conflict. — Janus
Indeed.You are making an argument premised on the belief that there is actually something more than just pragmatism when it comes to living life. You name these higher facts as truth, goodness, and the divine. You want to put these at the centre of our attention and efforts, and advocate for practices that are self-denying, self-effacing, oddly self focused in being self-rejecting. A life built around rejecting the everyday stress and pleasure of being a social self and aimed at becoming this notion of some more perfected state of being. A godly creature barely existing in the world as it generally is, and generally must be, for an organism pragmatically dependent on its socially-constructed environment.
So what supports this metaphysics as a factual argument? Where is the evidence that this ought to be any kind of project for us humans? — apokrisis
But if this is so, how do you propose to teach it, and why??These kinds of life lessons can be worked into the educational curriculum from a young age so that children start off properly equipped with an understanding of how their real world works, and the possibilities for improvement – of the self and its society – that flow from there.
/.../
It is the celebration of humanity as bestial rather than celestial.
I suspect that marketing something as an "absolute" is first and foremost a power move, an effort to exert control over others. If one can control what other people consider real and relevant, one can control others.The issue at this level isn't even philosophical. You will get no solutions from examining ideologies. Ideologies of any stripe become the problem when they are marketed as the absolutes that must rule our lives rather than some possible wisdom about how best to play the game that is being a useful member of a flourishing community.
Of course, but actually going through with one's personal salvation project used to be reserved for the select few, certainly it wasn't meant for everyone. — baker
One problem with that is that the watered down versions are being promoted as the real thing, and can eventually even replace it. — baker
Of course. However, the striving for harmony usually involved a lot of torture and killing in the past, and still involves a lof of strife. — baker
I said more later in the post you quoted.One problem with that is that the watered down versions are being promoted as the real thing, and can eventually even replace it.
— baker
What you say assumes what is at issue—that there really is is a "real thing" to be found. — Janus
The Decline of the Dharma or Ages of the Dharma, refers to traditional Buddhist accounts of how the Buddhist religion and the Buddha's teaching (Dharma) is believed to decline throughout history. It constitutes a key aspect of Buddhist eschatology and provides a cyclical model of history, beginning with a virtuous age where spiritual practice is very fruitful and ending with an age of strife, in which Buddhism is eventually totally forgotten.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_Dharma
(ironic, the ads that pop up on that precise page ...)The Dharma Ending Age, according to Mahayana Buddhism, is a prophetic period following the Buddha's nirvana, marked by a significant decline in the understanding and practice of the Dharma. This era is characterized by confusion, the rise of incorrect doctrines, and the prevalence of misleading spiritual practices. As the true teachings of Buddhism fade and important scriptures become less recognized, individuals struggle with spiritual cultivation, necessitating the preservation and transmission of the teachings to ensure continuity and spiritual awakening amidst challenges.
https://www.wisdomlib.org/concept/dharma-ending-age
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