Just because someone else (whatever a “MAGA” is??) sounds like me has nothing to do with the content of what I said. — Fire Ologist

The point is that you’ve been influenced by divisive political rhetoric — and are even proudly promoting it — rather than seeing things as they truly are. For example, your definition of woke is inaccurate because it essentializes “woke” into a narrow, partisan frame. It portrays wokeness as treating race, sex, and power as the most important factors in all choices, when in reality most who identify with or are labeled as “woke” simply emphasize awareness of systemic inequities alongside other concerns. It also reduces wokeness to “behavior and ideas” tied to progressive liberals and DEI initiatives, reflecting a common conservative critique rather than a neutral or self-described meaning. In practice, “woke” is a broader, contested term rooted in social awareness, not just a partisan ideology.

Let’s start over. — Fire Ologist

We've had at least a dozen pages of whining about the definition, can you please address some of the more relevant points, like all the infringements on free speech and other human rights that are orders of magnitude worse than any of the claims of what "woke" has done?

There's no comparison between the two responses. Celebrating a political assassination of a non-politician and wanting to further your non-violent political agenda aren't quite comparable. To be clear though, Project 2025 seems insane. Perhaps I'm just not across it, but I have not seen anything which would lead me to thin there was opportunism. The murder itself was expected. The right was correct to prepare for something like this - particularly after Mangione and the two attempts on Trump. I simply cannot draw the parallel you are i guess. — AmadeusD

I may have been unclear, but I am not trying to draw an equivalency. Not sure you read what I wrote,

I simply think that the right were waiting around for a Charlie Kirk moment, as they basically laid out in the 2025 project. Dude who cancelled Jimmy Kimmel wrote part of that document. Like how Trump told us all he would incite an insurrection months before the insurrection. None of this is hard to see.

MAGA wanted their own George Floyd. When they got one, they acted.

The 'right' are not represented by the Trump admin, nor the 2025 project. Assuming you and I are using the term the same way - to refer to the general population on the right.

Trump is not 'political' at all. He is an immoral opportunistic bully, aligned with colleagues who value his opportunism and weird charisma to empower their own opportunistic agenda. Sort of like how shitty leaders like Trudeau are the useful idiots of radical left ideologues who in no way actually represent the vast majority of people on the left.

You think the martyrdom of Kirk is somehow organic?

wokeness as treating race, sex, and power as the most important factors in all choices, — praxis

How about, ‘race sex and power as among the top factors’?

Seems like you are basically agreeing with me.

most who identify with or are labeled as “woke” simply emphasize awareness of systemic inequities alongside other concerns — praxis

“Systemic” - we should work that concept into the working definition. That’s a good point.

It also reduces wokeness to “behavior and ideas” tied to progressive liberals and DEI initiatives, reflecting a common conservative critique rather than a neutral or self-described meaning. — praxis

It’s not a critique if you like DEI. Woke is what it is - it is a left-leaning value system. That isn’t a critique.

in practice, “woke” is a broader, contested term rooted in social awareness, not just a partisan ideology. — praxis

How broader? Wokeness came from the left. But it stands alone as well. Its roots are not the issue. Does it have any value for all people of all partisan flavors or not? Is it good for anyone to, as you say, “emphasize awareness of systemic inequities” or not?

And come to think of it, if we add the concept of “systemic inequities” to the working definition, instead of just any inequities, that “systemic” focus might push wokeness close to being rooted in liberal leftism than even my definition. The left is always more interested in systems and groups than it is individuals and particulars.

But it doesn’t make sense for you to say to me that “been influenced by divisive rhetoric” when, 1) you have no way of knowing how I came up with my definition, and 2) you are showing signs of basically agreeing with it.

You sound like, if you wanted to help someone with a working definition of woke, you would be integrating some of the same concepts as I did. Which makes total sense to me, because I, and those spewing “divisive rhetoric,” didn’t invent woke - we just live with it.

And the term “divisive rhetoric” sounds like something you picked up “rather than seeing things as they truly are.”

You can be reluctant to agree woke has to do with systemic inequities involving race, sex and power, but you are still agreeing with me. What is so bad about just agreeing with me?

You are talking about revising and supplementing my working definition, not tossing it. So your judgments of how wrong I am sound contradictory.

a dozen pages of whining — Mijin

I’m pretty sure you are whining about me, more than I’m whining about woke. I’m not whining. If you were in the room with me, it wouldn’t sound like whining or complaining. So that’s dumb to keep saying.

the more relevant points, like all the infringements on free speech — Mijin

How is that more relevant than what I am trying to talk about on a thread call “The End of Woke”? I don’t think you are concerned about the ways the woke seek to control and limit free speech, so how is it “more relevant”?

that are orders of magnitude worse than any of the claims of what "woke" has done — Mijin

Right, you want to talk about something else. Not what woke has done. That’s some other thread. Like maybe a thread about how Trump is fascist is some other thread.

can you please address some of the more relevant points — Mijin

That is my line. You stole my line.

How is that more relevant than what I am trying to talk about on a thread call “The End of Woke”? — Fire Ologist

Because the OP is about what's happening in terms of authoritarian policies and freedom of expression. I doubt what he wanted was dozens of pages of definition debate.
And in any case, I've put to you that the people most against "woke", have used it to mean just about anything from why we lost Vietnam to vaccine mandates. You're not interested in discussing that, so if you won't engage in that issue with defining woke, why should I continue to engage in your hijack?

Right, you want to talk about something else. Not what woke has done. — Fire Ologist

I am asking you, what evidence you have of your so-called "woke" that compares to what's happening in the real world, like an executive order that now labels ideological dissent as terrorism at the same time as the military is being sent to Democratic cities.
As I say, it's farcical. We're living in the early stages of Project 2025 and you think the real problem is someone who got his feelings hurt by a woman in 1994 or whatever. If you've got better than that anecdote, let's hear it.

You are talking about revising and supplementing my working definition, not tossing it. So your judgments of how wrong I am sound contradictory. — Fire Ologist

Rather, your fragile ego can’t stand being “inaccurate”.

You think the martyrdom of Kirk is somehow organic? — Jeremy Murray

They sure are trying to make him a martyr.

• Ashli Babbitt was one of the Jan 6 (2021) attackers. The Babbitts were gifted just under $5 million by taxpayers, and Ashli got a funeral service with all-out military honors.
• In Jun 2025, Melissa and Mark Hortman (and their dog, Gilbert) were murdered. Melissa was an elected official. Not much to see here.
• In Sep 2025, Charlie Kirk was murdered; he was not an elected official, but part of the Trump crowd. His casket was transported by Air Force Two (at taxpayers' expense); there's been much fanfare and propaganda. Propaganda channels more or less followed Russian patterns, but include his widow ("We Are Charlie", "Erika Kirk, not Taylor Swift", etc).

They're not the only recent victims.

Kirk did have a following of outraged Christian nationalists, if that counts as organic.

A suggested definition of woke that should satisfy left/woke folk. Then if I may suggest the task then becomes discussing what parts of the spectrum that definition captures and where parts of that spectrum corrupt/change/evolve or flat out avoid that definition. That should apply to both sides I think.

Woke - the introduction of progressive values into traditional spaces that contain opposing values such as inequity, racism or sexism.

Is that a satisfying definition for the left/woke portion of this discussion?

You're one of the only posters here, aside from @Tom Storm whose online moniker or "screen name" I read aloud with ferocious excitement. Like, it just seems required. Sorry just had to mention that. Probably some latent movie-originated programming that has overtaken my sense of reason I've yet to discover.

Anyhow, to your point. The people who favor "wokeness" simply deem it, according to them, as your basic cookie-cutter "speaking truth to power." Something like: "Yeah, I'm not white, and you are, but as it so happens to be, the majority of this geographic or otherwise socio-policital region or sphere is, and so that means, I'm calling you out! (as one who holds power)" Basically saying, it doesn't matter whose in charge or why, all that matters is that you're in charge and I'm not, and per old adage, Heavy hangs the head that wears the crown.

Which is interesting, because, in theory, hypothetically, being "woke" in a place where such is the opposite, say, Africa, talking about unfairness and inequity targeted towards that given majority and power structure (which yes, happens to be Black), should basically be similar.

what's happening in terms of authoritarian policies and freedom of expression. — Mijin

Ok.

I know Trump and Christians, and old white men are authoritarian and they hate free speech. Those arguments are loud and clear. If that is what you want to talk about, fine, but I am more interested in getting some clarity on how wokeness is authoritarian and quashes free speech.

But you don’t think wokeness is a functional term, nor do I think you care about any fascism coming from the left.

So maybe we should be done here, unless the authoritarianism that comes from the left is part of the discussion, on a thread with “woke” in the title.

the people most against "woke", have used it to mean just about anything from why we lost Vietnam to vaccine mandates. You're not interested in discussing that — Mijin

Yes I am. That discussion requires some sort of working definition of “woke” - that is how one could demonstrate how, for instance, the Vietnam thing sounds stupid. How can we say “it’s stupid to think we lost the Vietnam war because of wokeness” without some general framework for what wokeness is?

I think you want to disagree with me no matter what.

Recall @NOS4A2 on the free speech thread. You and me agreed there - Nos was not making sense. He has a strange notion of freedom and determinism as these relate to speech and choice and action.

But here on this thread, I can tell NOS has no fondness for woke ideology. I bet it is because woke ideology is so authoritarian and so destructive of freedom and free speech. So I agree with much he says here.

But you don’t seem to see any fascism coming from left/progressive/woke - you seem to be more interested in showing how “woke” is a strawman (which undercuts the entire OP) and more interested in showing how the right spreads fascism.

Nothing wrong with that. You could just say “yeah I guess that is what I’m doing” - but I’m sure you don’t think I have it right…

I’m not trying to hyjack the thread. I’m trying to take careful steps - to build, together, some agreement on what “woke” means. This sounds like a good starting point to me.

You can’t admit “woke” means anything clear at all? No boundaries at all encompassing what is woke?

I never thought it was so controversial. If I say “girls can do everything boys can do” - that aligns with woke. If I say “girls cannot do everything boys can do” - that doesn’t sound woke to me.

So an interesting discussion is how oppression might be found by the woke mob yelling at anyone who won’t confess that girls can do everything boys can do. Whether you see this or agree with this, or not, seems relevant to the thread.

A second discussion is how oppression might be found by Trump preventing girls from doing stuff because they just cant do what boys do even if they wanted to…. But this second discussion isn’t really about woke anymore is it. Unless you are arguing “lower standards for girls in the navy is woke, and keeping girls out of the SEALs is oppressive.

We should at least talk about the left along with the right (if we need to talk about the right at all). On this thread.

BTW - I can see you have real concerns about Trump and what appears to be happening in the US. Is there any way to address your concerns without hearing out the concerns of right wing thinkers?

Don’t we all need to hash this shit out?

We really can’t find anything to agree on at all? Like whether there is a such thing a wokeness? You really don’t see woke as anything other than a right wing strawman? You never hear left-leaning people use the word? I think the left coined the term around 2010. I just think that it is obviously - wokeness is a real thing influencing thought, action and governmental policy. It’s hyper liberalism, focused on power struggles involved in racial and sexual identity.

Woke ideology gives us a lot to think about. I’ve said from the beginning, analysis of implicit bias is important for one’s own free-thinking and for communities to more humbly stay together and overcome fear, ignorance and stupid hate. But woke ideology also gives us some self-defeating, crappy policies - like the incoherent and impossible to fairly implement DEI policies.

You're one of the only posters here, aside from Tom Storm whose online moniker or "screen name" I read aloud with ferocious excitement. Like, it just seems required. Sorry just had to mention that. Probably some latent movie-originated programming that has overtaken my sen — Outlander

Thanks I think?

Anyhow, to your point. The people who favor "wokeness" simply deem it, according to them, as your basic cookie-cutter "speaking truth to power." Something like: "Yeah, I'm not white, and you are, but as it so happens to be, the majority of this geographic or otherwise socio-policital region or sphere is, and so that means, I'm calling you out! (as one who holds power)" Basically saying, it doesn't matter whose in charge or why, all that matters is that you're in charge and I'm not, and per old adage, Heavy hangs the head that wears the crown.

Which is interesting, because, in theory, hypothetically, being "woke" in a place where such is the opposite, say, Africa, talking about unfairness and inequity targeted towards that given majority and power structure (which yes, happens to be Black), should basically be similar. — Outlander

I would say this is an example of woke over reach not necessarily woke itself. That was the point I was getting at by starting with a definition of woke that can at least be a starting point for discussion. So far so the discussion has been mostly in the weeds.

I know Trump and Christians, and old white men are authoritarian and they hate free speech — Fire Ologist

You make it sound like just a couple of random guys. Trump is president, Project 2025 includes making America an explicitly Christian nation, and much of project 2025 has already been rolled out, right up to soldiers in the streets and executive orders describing people being "anti-christian" as terrorists.

That discussion requires some sort of working definition of “woke” - that is how one could demonstrate how, for instance, the Vietnam thing sounds stupid — Fire Ologist

Nope. Again, that would be like saying I can't say the emperor has no clothes unless I define exactly the fine silks which I believe he lacks.
It's trivial to point out that conservatives have used "woke" to mean anything and everything and thus it's a nonsense term. Why would the hopeless task of trying to forge a new word with a concrete meaning and get everyone to use it be on me?

I think you want to disagree with me no matter what. — Fire Ologist

The topic hasn't shifted in several pages, and I don't think you have presented me with any argument to even attempt to change my mind, so yes of course the disagreement stands.

I bet it is because woke ideology is so authoritarian and so destructive of freedom and free speech. So I agree with much he says here.

But you don’t seem to see any fascism coming from left/progressive/woke - you seem to be more interested in showing how “woke” is a strawman (which undercuts the entire OP) and more interested in showing how the right spreads fascism. — Fire Ologist

Correct -- my position is that what the left is doing in terms of free speech is not even 1% of the threat of the right wing currently. Serious estimate. This does not always have to be true for all time. A different government, a different culture, things can change. But that's the reality right now, and I've asked you many times for examples that would convince an objective observer otherwise.

You know what though @Fire Ologist you are right that I think I've said my piece for this thread.

I think the premise the OP is based on is false. And I think "woke" is a meaningless scare word.

I've already explained why in multiple posts, so I may as well bid everyone goodday and bow out.

A dignified exit from a poor thread. You did some nice work here.

Thanks brother :fist_bump:

what's happening in terms of authoritarian policies and freedom of expression — Mijin

Hmmm. :chin: Lots of things from lots of different directions. Did you see SB 771 in California? Fairly woke side fascist move. And a more concrete fascist move than anything Trump is doing. (Although it will be interesting to see if the law is enforceable or gets tossed by the courts….)

you stupid shit. — Mijin

Now that doesn’t really foster dialogue, does it.

dignified exit — Banno

:fist_bump: — Mijin

Might be too late…. But ok, bye.

I’m here if you want to talk….

As in this:

I think "woke" is a meaningless scare word.

I've already explained why in multiple posts — Mijin

You certainly said this. But I don’t think you’ve really explained why, or how.

I don’t see how the word “woke” would function as a “scare word” and galvanize the right, and elect a president, twice, without enough content to it to stir emotions. To me, that content is DEI initiatives, white college kids protesting for Palestine and for trans normativity, and against ICE and Jews and Tesla cars. That’s all democrat/woke actual stuff. Plenty of fascism and violence to go around, eh? It used to be scary. Now, as college debaters are murdered and the woke counts its blessings, and none of the MAGA fascists rioted or retaliated with anything but more forgiveness, and offers to debate and discuss, we all can see the woke emporer has no clothes. Except he’s wearing a thong, and for some reason no one knows whether he was a boy or girl. (don’t worry, the wonderful media will get him/her/them a robe)

I may as well bid everyone goodday and bow out — Mijin

So “the End of Woke” brought you to the end of the conversation.

You did some nice work here. — Banno

:rofl: The bubble remains intact - shrinking though isn’t it?

I fault neoliberalism - but more plainly, the fear of lawsuits seems the driving force of 'determining authority'. Teachers here only have the authority they are able to create for themselves - it is impossible in Ontario to count on admin to support them, in all but the most extreme cases.

Wouldn't it make sense to build schools around the best teachers - like your grandmother and my mom?

I used to be diametrically opposed to charter schools, private schools, etc. Given I fear that public education in Canada has been ideologically captured, I now wish we had more choice for students and
teachers both. — Jeremy Murray

I think the subject of lawsuits deserves its own thread. Lawsuits undoubtedly play a significant role in our lives, and I believe our legal system has lost its balance and become part of the problem.

A teacher at the 1917 National Education Association meeting in Portland, Oregon, quoted a seer. Tagore of India to make a point.

"Whatever their efficiency, such great organizations are so impersonal that they bear down on the individual lives of the people like a hydraulic press whose action is completely effective in crushing out individual liberty and power. " Tagore

I noticed elsewhere in this thread the use of the word "fascism". Germany was known as a mechanical society. The US adopted Germany's models of bureaucracy and education. This shifts power and authority from the individual to the government. I have a 1960 book for teachers, explaining the importance of being impersonal. If we are personal or not, is a matter of culture. Huxley and Orwell based their novels on what they saw happening, with concern that these forces would be overriding.

My grandmother's generation of teachers thought it was their duty to help every child discover his/her, talents and interests. Education was for everyone, and we were opposed to schools pathing children as we have done ever since the 1958 National Defense Education Act and IQ testing.

I don't know if anyone can see what this has to do with WOKE, but hopefully everyone will realize what being impersonal has to do with it. Private decisions have been taken over by the government's "rule by law". How can we not see that the excesses of our rule by law are destroying our liberty? That all children must be taught to accept sexual variations is a horror when compared to the culturally supported notion that sex is a private matter and not something we make public.

none of the MAGA fascists rioted or retaliated with anything but more forgiveness — Fire Ologist

Nothing but forgiveness, aye? The anti-leftist hate mongering was monumental, and despite no public, verified ideological manifesto or affiliation having been established to date.

Once again your skewed view of reality shaped by MAGA propaganda on display.

Look, I obviously tend to be more harsh on the left than the right, because I’m conservative. (And have been brow beaten all my adult life.) But I think the conservative counter-argument to the wrongs the left have been perpetrating in the name of political correctness/wokism are much more relevant today than the more shallow fears and purported injustices the left wants to focus on. Many might not want to admit it, but the US, and really the world, is in a better place today since Trump took office. The biggest threat to the US today is the same as it has been for 20 years - Democrat policies. Conservative racism and fascism is simply put, bullshit. The left is full of too much obvious bullshit, and too many people already see it, too many have seen enough of it, and too many people are leaving the Democrat Party everyday the left does and says another stupid thing. — Fire Ologist

I so wish people would drop the labels and name the subject of discussion. You all seem to be holding bags full of evils, but do not speak of the evil, other than to call it bullshit. Everyone is doing this, and I am left out of the discussion because I have no idea what bullshit everyone is talking about.

What are Democratic policies? Does every Democrat agree with all Democratic policies? Are all Republics fascist pigs? What are the forces under discussion?

But you don’t seem to see any fascism coming from left/progressive/woke - you seem to be more interested in showing how “woke” is a strawman (which undercuts the entire OP) and more interested in showing how the right spreads fascism. — Fire Ologist

If we want to stop the spread of fascism, we have to begin with education and the manufacturers of textbooks. There are two ways of having social order: culture or authority over the people. Education for technology ended using our schools to defend our liberty, by transmitting a culture and organic democracy.

The US stopped educating for good moral judgment and left moral training to the Church. Christian Nationalism is the result. Christian Nationalism and its fight against evil favors fascism. That authority over the people that is made necessary by the people's evilness, according to Christian mythology. This is not a democracy based on classical philosophy and the Enlightenment, or an understanding of evolution. The US is not the democracy it defended in the two World Wars.

I don’t see how the word “woke” would function as a “scare word” — Fire Ologist

You don't think well-meaning Christians are alarmed by the evil spreading across the country? You don't have a problem with the government having more power to control the decisions regarding your children than the people living in your school district? I think for many people, Woke is equated with evil, and when this evil becomes part of our education system, "woke" raises serious fears.

None of this is hard to see — Jeremy Murray

It does seem to be, though. I mean, there are millions further into the 'Huh, i dont know what you're talking about" that I am (or, semi-pretending to be). Perhaps we're just not seeing things the same way.

MAGA wanted their own George Floyd. When they got one, they acted. — Jeremy Murray

I don't think so.

Trump is not 'political' at all. He is an immoral opportunistic bully, aligned with colleagues who value his opportunism and weird charisma to empower their own opportunistic agenda. Sort of like how shitty leaders like Trudeau are the useful idiots of radical left ideologues who in no way actually represent the vast majority of people on the left.

You think the martyrdom of Kirk is somehow organic? — Jeremy Murray

That seems a little naiive to me. Trump is clearly highly political and cares deeply about political issues. He is, though, a moron with only glimpses of moral scruples. But I don't quite understand this characterisation - just as I don't when words like 'dictator' are thrown around. It's just not serious enough.

If we want to stop the spread of fascism, we have to begin with education and the manufacturers of textbooks. — Athena

The ugly irony of this is beyond my ability to correct. The ignorant required to suggest fascist tactics to combat fascism is both egregious and no longer surprising on the left. You can reject labels all you want, but if behaviours are informed by your underlying ideologies, that is hte 'evil' you aren't talking about.

Trump is clearly highly political and cares deeply about political issues. — AmadeusD

That's funny, I just had this same discussion with my wife. She said Trump cares nothing except for furthering his own ego needs. He would be a Bernie-bro open borders socialist if he thought that would give him power and narcissistic supply. I argued he has some core beliefs. If Trump had complete power, Trumplandia would be very right-wing conservative. She said that's only because right-wing authoratarianism (sp) appeals to his ego. I still don't know if she's right. I think she might be.

your skewed view of reality shaped by MAGA propaganda on display — praxis

Why not just comment on what I say and not conjecture about where you think it comes from? (Probably because you think anything that even sounds like it comes from MAGA has to be wrong/evil/beneath your dignity.)

It’s an objective fact that there were no riots or protests in response to Kirk’s assassination, isn’t it? (Maybe the FCC and Trump are suppressing all those right wing fascist riot stories?)

Kirk was murdered. Leftists responded (saw the bright side, if not celebrating death). Rightists responded (mostly with prayer and inspiration to engage in more speech).
Was anyone besides the shooter rounded up because of political speech (and the shooter was not rounded up because of his views - but because of the bullet he put in a man’s neck)? Any businesses trashed and robbed? Any police stations burned to the ground? Any cities like Portland Oregon full of right wing protestors?

Any such thing as woke propaganda and a skewed view of conservatives? Is it even possible that sound bites don’t tell the whole story?

anti-leftist hate mongering was monumental, — praxis

It was? Monumental? Not enough safe spaces for you in the US? Seriously? Where did you get that - what shapes your opinion? Anything skewed or exaggerated there?

Another word for hate mongering is, speaking.

Maybe just make the better argument and be brave in the face of such monumental hate mongering.

You realize the left and progressive democrats are the ones who propose laws limiting and punishing free speech. Not the right. (Bondi was an idiot.)
And this thread is about the left, not the right - it’s about the end of woke.

The point is - who are the real fascists who openly celebrate assassination, who hate argument and dialogue with their opposition, who ironically want to control “hate speech” (which is just speech) with law and policy, who protest violently, causing damage, destruction and death…?

If there is an End of Woke, it will be because progressive liberals will not self-assess their ideology.

And they continue to misunderstand the moment.

Nothing but forgiveness, aye? — praxis

Yes, Forgiveness, and offers to debate and discuss. Just not on the left’s narrow limiting terms.

Look, I know and love many leftists. Truly. That doesn’t mean I have to tell them they aren’t totally delusional and full of shit. I love them. I respect them. I make sure to be humble and respectful. I avoid politics. But if they ask me about their politics, I make sure they know the way they see things is messed up - utterly contradictory and inconsistent, full of half-truths (which are also known as lies), and just bad ideas.

Massive division sown and reaped by the left - along with politically driven assault and killing, attacks on basic institutions like the police and free speech, and utter destruction and chaos in our cities. That’s on the left. That’s, in part, due to woke ideology.

Again, there is plenty of stupidity and lies and contradiction to point out about the right. But this thread is about the End of Woke. And leftism needs to be evaluated in the open air. Enough with the cancelation of opponents to stupid leftist bullshit.

And It’s not inherent to progressive liberalism that someone else be silenced or canceled or killed, and it’s not inherent to liberalism that their solutions are unworkable; but today it often looks that way and if we keep ignoring it, we have every reason to fear more killings.

We freedom lovers, left and right, should all be able to come together in horror at Kirk’s murder, but today’s left hates the right way too much for that. The left refuses to see good in anything coming from the right. Period. And the left refuses to put partisanship aside to just console a wounded nation.

Kirk’s death should have been a unifying moment - but since 9/11 (which was a short left-right unifying moment), and these past 20 plus years, the division has metastasized, and it’s been packaged for consumption by both sides. So the possibility of the shallow but real unity we once were capable of, seems gone.

That is the real threat to democracy. All of the bad faith, clouding judgment, blinding us to basic facts.

I don’t see how the word “woke” would function as a “scare word”
— Fire Ologist

You don't think well-meaning Christians are alarmed by the evil spreading across the country? You don't have a problem with the government having more power to control the decisions regarding your children than the people living in your school district? — Athena

@Mijin was saying woke is just a word used to scare people. That woke is not a real thing. I disagree with that.

I’m saying if woke wasn’t a real thing, it wouldn’t function to raise fear like it does. But it is real. Obviously. I agree woke policy is some dreadful crap. Not just for Christians, but for freedom, and peace, and community. And of course for children. The school system is an utter mess because of “what is woke”.

The US stopped educating for good moral judgment and left moral training to the Church. Christian Nationalism is the result. Christian Nationalism and its fight against evil favors fascism. That authority over the people that is made necessary by the people's evilness, according to Christian mythology — Athena

Ok, so that sounds like woke propaganda.

Since when did Americans think the US government should control the content of the education of our children? That’s not smart. Government can be assholes, so why would we give them the power to select the curriculum for our children? Liberals want a strong Dept of Education. Repubs don’t. That way control over textbooks gets closer into the hands of the parents.

So it is not republicans who would ever say that the “US stopped educating for good moral judgment.” Republicans say that parents got lazy and trusted the government’s public schools to educate their kids and the public schools, infected by wokeness, have lost all moral authority.

No one is advocating “moral training be left up to the Church.” The Church is how parents train their own kids. But it is up to the parents.

But we see how parents do in school board meetings when they just want their kids to be left out of the delusional world of woke ideology.

I agree Church must keep its distance from the state, and the state must remain agnostic to any religion. So do most conservatives. But being a loud and proud Christian who loves his country… why not? whoop-de-do for you. I don’t see anything solid behind Christian Nationalism. Loving God and country is one thing (a good thing); but somehow incorporating Christianity into government, that’s a caliphate. That’s not republican.

Christian’s fight against evil is also called, having a heated argument. Fascism and Christ are incompatible. Just worry about regular fascism. The notion of Christian Nationalism is more woke propaganda.

It amazes me how ill people think of Christians, even though it’s always been that way since Christ was hung on a cross. America was partially formed to escape persecution for saying “Christ”. Christians have always been at the helm of the country. I don’t think Christian Nationalism is anything more than patriots who happen to be Christian.

Maybe we can chill out people. Christians aren’t a real enemy. Nor are they fascists. Any fascist is too concerned about earthly power to have any real understanding of Christian “mythology” as you put it.

anti-leftist hate mongering was monumental,
— praxis

It was? Monumental? Not enough safe spaces for you in the US? Seriously? Where did you get that - what shapes your opinion? Anything skewed or exaggerated there?

…

Yes, Forgiveness, and offers to debate and discuss. — Fire Ologist

So you’re just denying it.

Do you believe Kirk’s killer was a leftist?

Rightists responded (mostly with prayer and inspiration to engage in more speech). — Fire Ologist

The head of the FCC said "we can do this the easy way or the hard way" and Jimmy Kimmel was suspended. Even Ted Cruz thought it went too far. It's not rioting, but for the federal government to put pressure on a network to remove a comedian is chilling in its own way.

That is the real threat to democracy. — Fire Ologist

You don't think Trump tried to steal the 2020 election? Do you think Jan 6th happens if Trump doesn't give that speech right beforehand? It doesn't concern you that Trump talks about running in 2028? Or that he wanted to suspend the Constitution to reinstate himself?

Mijin was saying woke is just a word used to scare people. That woke is not a real thing. I disagree with that.

I’m saying if woke wasn’t a real thing, it wouldn’t function to raise fear like it does. But it is real. Obviously. — Fire Ologist

I know I said I'd bow out, but if someone @s me then I am summoned again.

I have asked you multiple times, at least half a dozen times now, for evidence. And the fact that you fall back to basically "lots of people believe this" is telling. It's the same argument used about the "stolen" 2020 election. Or the MMR vaccine causing autism.

Lots of people can believe false things, especially when it's a message being pushed in the circle in which they get their "news".